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USA P4P Rankings (Pre-Final X)

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Here's what I got... tear 'em apart:

 

P4P Rankings
1 Kyle Snyder (3x World and Olympic Champ, 2x Yarygin Champ)
2 Jordan Burroughs (5x World and Olympic Champ, 1x Yasar Dogu Champ)
3 David Taylor (1x Yarygin Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
4 J'den Cox (1x Olympic Bronze, 1x World Bronze)
5 Kyle Dake (1x Yarygin Silver)
6 James Green (1x World Silver, 1x World Bronze)
7 Nick Gwiazdowski (1x World Bronze, 1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Yarygin Bronze)
8 Thomas Gilman (1x World Silver)
9 Jordan Oliver (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Yasar Dogu Bronze)
10 Logan Stieber (1x Non-Oly World Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
11 Zahid Valencia (1x Junior Silver)
12 Alex Dieringer (1x Junior Silver, 1x Ukrainian Champ)
13 Zain Retherford (1x Cadet Champ, 1x World Qualifier)
14 Mark Hall (1x Pan Am Champ, 2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)
15 Adam Coon (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Champ)
16 Daton Fix (1x Junior Champ, 1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Broze)
17 Tony Ramos (1x Yarygin 5th, 2x World Qualifier)
18 Nick Heflin (1x Yarygin 5th)
19 Joey McKenna (1x U23 Bronze, 1x Junior Silver)
20 Spencer Lee (2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)
21 Kendric Maple (1x Medved Champ)
22 Isaiah Martinez (1x U23 5th)
23 Joe Colon (1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Ukrainian Bronze)
24 Kyven Gadson (1x Pan Am Silver)
25 Richie Lewis (1x U23 Champ)
 

 

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1 Kyle Snyder (3x World and Olympic Champ, 2x Yarygin Champ)

2 Jordan Burroughs (5x World and Olympic Champ, 1x Yasar Dogu Champ)

3 J'den Cox (1x Olympic Bronze, 1x World Bronze)

4 James Green (1x World Silver, 1x World Bronze)

5 Kyle Dake (1x Yarygin Silver)

6 David Taylor (1x Yarygin Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)

7 Nick Gwiazdowski (1x World Bronze, 1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Yarygin Bronze)

8 Thomas Gilman (1x World Silver)

9 Logan Stieber (1x Non-Oly World Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)

10 Zahid Valencia (1x Junior Silver)

11 Daton Fix (1x Junior Champ, 1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Broze)

12 Alex Dieringer (1x Junior Silver, 1x Ukrainian Champ)

13 Zain Retherford (1x Cadet Champ, 1x World Qualifier)

14 Adam Coon (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Champ)


15 Mark Hall (1x Pan Am Champ, 2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)

 

I think you've got a great list even if I'd rank them different.  Nothing to tear apart I can see because it's only the pretty debatable stuff I'd disagree with.  I love the list of accomplishments, but I think in most cases who someone beat means more than what place.  Maybe someone with lots of time and internet sleuthing skills can list best wins.  Also I think results from this current year and the last year are all that really matter for current P4P comparisons.  I think Stieber is top 10 based on some good wins the last 2 years, not because he won a tournament 2 years ago.  I also think some of the wins came at much different weight classes and that has to be remembered.  Again using Stieber as an example, if he could wrestle in a weight he was more suited for he's probably top 5.  Conversely I don't think Green is great, but he fits that weight perfectly and I'd absolutely take 70 KG Green over 79 KG Dake.  I also think Coon is the biggest potential sleeper.  He could be top 5 in a few months.  

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1 Kyle Snyder (3x World and Olympic Champ, 2x Yarygin Champ)
2 Jordan Burroughs (5x World and Olympic Champ, 1x Yasar Dogu Champ)
3 J'den Cox (1x Olympic Bronze, 1x World Bronze)
4 James Green (1x World Silver, 1x World Bronze)
5 Kyle Dake (1x Yarygin Silver)
6 David Taylor (1x Yarygin Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
7 Nick Gwiazdowski (1x World Bronze, 1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Yarygin Bronze)
8 Thomas Gilman (1x World Silver)
9 Logan Stieber (1x Non-Oly World Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
10 Zahid Valencia (1x Junior Silver)
11 Daton Fix (1x Junior Champ, 1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Broze)
12 Alex Dieringer (1x Junior Silver, 1x Ukrainian Champ)
13 Zain Retherford (1x Cadet Champ, 1x World Qualifier)
14 Adam Coon (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Champ)
15 Mark Hall (1x Pan Am Champ, 2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)
 
I think you've got a great list even if I'd rank them different.  Nothing to tear apart I can see because it's only the pretty debatable stuff I'd disagree with.  I love the list of accomplishments, but I think in most cases who someone beat means more than what place.  Maybe someone with lots of time and internet sleuthing skills can list best wins.  Also I think results from this current year and the last year are all that really matter for current P4P comparisons.  I think Stieber is top 10 based on some good wins the last 2 years, not because he won a tournament 2 years ago.  I also think some of the wins came at much different weight classes and that has to be remembered.  Again using Stieber as an example, if he could wrestle in a weight he was more suited for he's probably top 5.  Conversely I don't think Green is great, but he fits that weight perfectly and I'd absolutely take 70 KG Green over 79 KG Dake.  I also think Coon is the biggest potential sleeper.  He could be top 5 in a few months.  

 

 

I thought about listing relevant wins but it would take a little more time. 

 

Green is a tough one to rank.  Clearly his accomplishments are greater than Dake & Taylor's, but I've never at any point felt like he was potentially the best in the world.  Even after reaching the final. I think Dake is the clear #2 in the world @ 79kg, with potential to knock off Gadzhimagomedov... that was my justification at least.  That and eye test.  

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I thought about listing relevant wins but it would take a little more time. 

 

Green is a tough one to rank.  Clearly his accomplishments are greater than Dake & Taylor's, but I've never at any point felt like he was potentially the best in the world.  Even after reaching the final. I think Dake is the clear #2 in the world @ 79kg, with potential to knock off Gadzhimagomedov... that was my justification at least.  That and eye test.  

WIth many of the weight classes spread out and some of the weights sandwiched into non-olympic years you end up with lots of guys at less than optimal weights.  To me you have to rank them in the weight they're in.  Green is one heck of a 70 KG who can't make 66 with anything left and who is average at 74.  But at 70 he is really good.  Whether he can be best in the world or not is a debate, but I'd definitely put even money on him as more likely to medal than Dake.  So I agree most of those guys could be shifted around based on how you look at things.  Really Snyder is 1 and Burroughs is 2 and everything else is in the eye of the beholder.  

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Interesting list

 

I tend to use credentials for these kinds of rankings, so someone like Green is always ahead of someone like Dake.

 

Your methodology is different but possible more accurate when ranking the “best” American wrestlers

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1 Kyle Snyder (3x World and Olympic Champ, 2x Yarygin Champ)
2 Jordan Burroughs (5x World and Olympic Champ, 1x Yasar Dogu Champ)
3 J'den Cox (1x Olympic Bronze, 1x World Bronze)
4 James Green (1x World Silver, 1x World Bronze)
5 Kyle Dake (1x Yarygin Silver)
6 David Taylor (1x Yarygin Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
7 Nick Gwiazdowski (1x World Bronze, 1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Yarygin Bronze)
8 Thomas Gilman (1x World Silver)
9 Logan Stieber (1x Non-Oly World Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
10 Zahid Valencia (1x Junior Silver)
11 Daton Fix (1x Junior Champ, 1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Broze)
12 Alex Dieringer (1x Junior Silver, 1x Ukrainian Champ)
13 Zain Retherford (1x Cadet Champ, 1x World Qualifier)
14 Adam Coon (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Champ)
15 Mark Hall (1x Pan Am Champ, 2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)
 
I think you've got a great list even if I'd rank them different.  Nothing to tear apart I can see because it's only the pretty debatable stuff I'd disagree with.  I love the list of accomplishments, but I think in most cases who someone beat means more than what place.  Maybe someone with lots of time and internet sleuthing skills can list best wins.  Also I think results from this current year and the last year are all that really matter for current P4P comparisons.  I think Stieber is top 10 based on some good wins the last 2 years, not because he won a tournament 2 years ago.  I also think some of the wins came at much different weight classes and that has to be remembered.  Again using Stieber as an example, if he could wrestle in a weight he was more suited for he's probably top 5.  Conversely I don't think Green is great, but he fits that weight perfectly and I'd absolutely take 70 KG Green over 79 KG Dake.  I also think Coon is the biggest potential sleeper.  He could be top 5 in a few months.  

 

I think your's are the most accurate.  Only thing I would do is put Gwiz ahead of Dake and Taylor.  He has too much World level experience and has brought home some hardware.  Until, Dake and Taylor have wrestled in a World Championship, I can't put them ahead of him.

 

With the risk of being hypocritical, I would still leave them ahead of Gilman, even though he has hardware.  My reasoning being, Gilman wrestled in a watered down, year after the Olympics tourney.  Now, if he beats Fix in a couple of weeks, I may consider bumping him ahead of those 2 as well.

Edited by MSU158

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Well as far as Gilman is concerned, I know there is the feeling that 57, was a depleted weight class, last year, and there may be a case to make about that. However, now with these new weigh in procedures, the medal winners from last year may just be the the movers and shakers in this weight, at least until Tokyo. But depending on what happens at Final X and subsequently at the World's it should give us a clearer picture.

As far as the rankings, you have to be JB at the top of the list, he has the most World Titles, and medals of anyone currently wrestling for us.

Gwiz has to be ranked higher than Dake or DT, due to his World Bronze.

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You can't dismiss Gilman's world silver as the result of a post Olympic year but then hold up Gwiz's world bronze in the same post Olympic year.  And as for who wins in a world cup match it is always funny to me that every time an international star loses outside of Worlds it is dismissed as the guy not taking it seriously, but every time an American loses outside of the worlds it is proof a guy isn't that good.  

 

Gilman is the defending world silver medalist and it is entirely possible that all the guys who moved up from the weight in 2017 stay gone with the new weigh in rules.  If Gilman and Gwiz are able to make the USA team I'd make them equally likely to medal.  

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Well as far as Gilman is concerned, I know there is the feeling that 57, was a depleted weight class, last year, and there may be a case to make about that. However, now with these new weigh in procedures, the medal winners from last year may just be the the movers and shakers in this weight, at least until Tokyo. But depending on what happens at Final X and subsequently at the World's it should give us a clearer picture.

As far as the rankings, you have to be JB at the top of the list, he has the most World Titles, and medals of anyone currently wrestling for us.

Gwiz has to be ranked higher than Dake or DT, due to his World Bronze.

Most would not define P4P as the most accomplished or 'greatest', but rather as the current best across all weights.  

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Most would not define P4P as the most accomplished or 'greatest', but rather as the current best across all weights.  

I just think Gwiz has put his "money where his mouth is" in a very top heavy weight class.  Dake and Taylor have yet to do it when it counts.  Plus, International competition is known for peaking for Worlds/Olympics even moreso than we talk about it for the NCAA DI Tournament.

 

Mind you, I say the above being one of the biggest proponents of Dake and thoroughly believing he would have multiple medals if not for Burroughs.  Still, he simply doesn't have the results to put him above Gwiz.

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P4P Rankings

1. Kyle Snyder (3x World and 1x Olympic Champ, 2x Yarygin Champ)
2. Jordan Burroughs (5x World and Olympic Champ, 1x Yasar Dogu Champ)
(1st tier are my gold medal favorites)
3. Kyle Dake (1x Yarygin Silver)
4. David Taylor (1x Yarygin Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
5. James Green (1x World Silver, 1x World Bronze)
(2nd tier are my medal favorites with gold potential)
6. J'den Cox (1x Olympic Bronze, 1x World Bronze)
7. Nick Gwiazdowski (1x World Bronze, 1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Yarygin Bronze)
8. Zahid Valencia (1x Junior Silver)
(3rd tier all have good shot at medaling, but gold unlikely)
9. Zain Retherford (1x Cadet Champ, 1x World Qualifier)
10. Thomas Gilman (1x World Silver)
11. Daton Fix (1x Junior Champ, 1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Broze)
12. Logan Stieber (1x Non-Oly World Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
13. Alex Dieringer (1x Junior Silver, 1x Ukrainian Champ)
14. Mark Hall (1x Pan Am Champ, 2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)
15. Spencer Lee (2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)
16. Jordan Oliver (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Yasar Dogu Bronze)
17. Adam Coon (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Champ)
(4th tier have medal potential)
 
*based my rankings on ability to perform at worlds this year at current weight, if they were to make the team

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1 Kyle Snyder (3x World and Olympic Champ, 2x Yarygin Champ)

2 Jordan Burroughs (5x World and Olympic Champ, 1x Yasar Dogu Champ)

3 J'den Cox (1x Olympic Bronze, 1x World Bronze)

4 James Green (1x World Silver, 1x World Bronze)

5 Kyle Dake (1x Yarygin Silver)

6 David Taylor (1x Yarygin Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)

7 Nick Gwiazdowski (1x World Bronze, 1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Yarygin Bronze)

8 Thomas Gilman (1x World Silver)

9 Logan Stieber (1x Non-Oly World Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)

10 Zahid Valencia (1x Junior Silver)

11 Daton Fix (1x Junior Champ, 1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Broze)

12 Alex Dieringer (1x Junior Silver, 1x Ukrainian Champ)

13 Zain Retherford (1x Cadet Champ, 1x World Qualifier)

14 Adam Coon (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Champ)

 

15 Mark Hall (1x Pan Am Champ, 2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)

 

I think you've got a great list even if I'd rank them different. Nothing to tear apart I can see because it's only the pretty debatable stuff I'd disagree with. I love the list of accomplishments, but I think in most cases who someone beat means more than what place. Maybe someone with lots of time and internet sleuthing skills can list best wins. Also I think results from this current year and the last year are all that really matter for current P4P comparisons. I think Stieber is top 10 based on some good wins the last 2 years, not because he won a tournament 2 years ago. I also think some of the wins came at much different weight classes and that has to be remembered. Again using Stieber as an example, if he could wrestle in a weight he was more suited for he's probably top 5. Conversely I don't think Green is great, but he fits that weight perfectly and I'd absolutely take 70 KG Green over 79 KG Dake. I also think Coon is the biggest potential sleeper. He could be top 5 in a few months.

I like this list. Any list without J'Den at third is not a good list and this list has it right. Can't figure out why so many wrestling people sell him short.

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Everyone has a right to their opinion, but I don't see how Cox can be put behind Dake or Taylor.

If Cox was still at 86, I could see your argument. But a combination of him bumping up to 92, and Dake and Taylor both filled in and dominating the competition of late at 79 and 86, I have to give the edge to them at current weights right now.

 

 

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P4P Rankings

 

1. Kyle Snyder (3x World and 1x Olympic Champ, 2x Yarygin Champ)

2. Jordan Burroughs (5x World and Olympic Champ, 1x Yasar Dogu Champ)

(1st tier are my gold medal favorites)

3. Kyle Dake (1x Yarygin Silver)

4. David Taylor (1x Yarygin Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)

5. James Green (1x World Silver, 1x World Bronze)

(2nd tier are my medal favorites with gold potential)

6. J'den Cox (1x Olympic Bronze, 1x World Bronze)

7. Nick Gwiazdowski (1x World Bronze, 1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Yarygin Bronze)

8. Zahid Valencia (1x Junior Silver)

(3rd tier all have good shot at medaling, but gold unlikely)

9. Zain Retherford (1x Cadet Champ, 1x World Qualifier)

10. Thomas Gilman (1x World Silver)

11. Daton Fix (1x Junior Champ, 1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Broze)

12. Logan Stieber (1x Non-Oly World Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)

13. Alex Dieringer (1x Junior Silver, 1x Ukrainian Champ)

14. Mark Hall (1x Pan Am Champ, 2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)

15. Spencer Lee (2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)

16. Jordan Oliver (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Yasar Dogu Bronze)

17. Adam Coon (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Champ)

(4th tier have medal potential)

 

*based my rankings on ability to perform at worlds this year at current weight, if they were to make the team

I am a little confused, you based rankings on potential to medal, but put a guy who has medals twice, once in the Olympics, over two who have never had a word at pedaling, and another who is solid but has medals at non Olymic weights. Serioursly?

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I am a little confused, you based rankings on potential to medal, but put a guy who has medals twice, once in the Olympics, over two who have never had a word at pedaling, and another who is solid but has medals at non Olymic weights. Serioursly?

 

Feel free to disagree. But as I stated in my last post, the rankings I made were based on this year, at current weights, as far as potential to compete against the world's best. If Cox had stayed at 86, I likely would have him in my top 3-4. And since this is a non-olympic year, I did not put too much stock into olympic vs. non-olympic weights.

 

My rationale for #3-#6: Dake has been dominating the competition outside of Yarygin final vs Russian, solid top contender at 79. Taylor another top contender that has been winning in dominating fashion (has previous win over current champ Yazdani). These two are pretty much a toss-up for me at 3&4. Green is also two time medalist like Cox, coming off a silver, and with Chamizo bumping up to 74 I believe he has realistic shot at gold. And with Cox moving up to a weight with Sad, I see a likely medal but pretty limited shot at Gold (which is why I have him currently behind Green by a fairly slim margin). 

Edited by Lubongo

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Feel free to disagree. But as I stated in my last post, the rankings I made were based on this year, at current weights, as far as potential to compete against the world's best. If Cox had stayed at 86, I likely would have him in my top 3-4. And since this is a non-olympic year, I did not put too much stock into olympic vs. non-olympic weights.

 

My rationale for #3-#6: Dake has been dominating the competition outside of Yarygin final vs Russian, solid top 2-3 contender at 79. Taylor another top 2-3 contender that has been winning in dominating fashion as well (also has previous win over current champ Yazdani). These two are pretty much a toss-up for me at 3&4. Green is also two time medalist, coming off a silver, and with Chamizo bumping up to 74 I believe he has realistic shot at gold. And with Cox moving up to a weight with Sad, I see a likely medal but pretty limited shot at Gold (which is why I have him currently behind Green by the slimmest of margins).

Lawyer like rationale but still absurd, and pretty much the norm, when it comes to J'Den. J 'den is clearly the least respected current wrestler in the US. I mean other than youth results, NCAA results, an Olympic medal, and a world medal, beat two guys ahead of him, the guy is kind of a scrub. LOL Edited by sgallan

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The thing that would give me a hard time putting cox behind dake and taylor, is not just that he medaled the last two years and they didn’t make the team, but that he beat them the last two years to make the team before winning those medals. That just doesn’t square with me. But then again I haven’t put together a list to put him above them.

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The thing that would give me a hard time putting cox behind dake and taylor, is not just that he medaled the last two years and they didn’t make the team, but that he beat them the last two years to make the team before winning those medals. That just doesn’t square with me. But then again I haven’t put together a list to put him above them.

I could see Dake ahead of Cox from a pound for pound stand point because Dake did win one match, and was way outsized. But Cox should be ahead of Taylor, and has the medals.

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I could see Dake ahead of Cox from a pound for pound stand point because Dake did win one match, and was way outsized. But Cox should be ahead of Taylor, and has the medals.

Loses the series, doesn't get a medal, and yet is better. Makes my point of Cox having no respect. The irony being Dake, the original guy who got no respect, to make the point. This forum gets stupid in between competitions.

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