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steamboat_charlie

USA P4P Rankings (Pre-Final X)

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Loses the series, doesn't get a medal, and yet is better. Makes my point of Cox having no respect. The irony being Dake, the original guy who got no respect, to make the point. This forum gets stupid in between competitions.

Its a pound for pound ranking. Dake was doing everything possible to put on size at the time and was still way small for the weight, where as Cox was cutting, Dake was 1-2 against Cox, but if size was equal (again p4p) you could argue Dake would have won. Which is the point of p4p rankings, debating who is better, not who would actually win. Dake actually won giving up a good amount of weight though, so how is it so crazy to think Dake could be better. Edited by maolsen

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Its a pound for pound ranking. Dake was doing everything possible to put on size at the time and was still way small for the weight, where as Cox was cutting, Dake was 1-2 against Cox, but if size was equal (again p4p) you could argue Dake would have won. Which is the point of p4p rankings, debating who is better, not who would actually win. Dake actually won giving up a good amount of weight though, so how is it so crazy to think Dake could be better.

The problem is there really isn't a clear definition of what P4P means. I agree with you that it should be how wrestlers rank if they were in a vacuum and all weighed exactly the same as that's what P4P literally means, but it's not. I remember this past season at 165 Flo had Marinelli ranked ahead of Vincezo Joseph after he bear him, but had Joseph ranked ahead of Marinelli in the P4P, which makes no sense at all. It made sense for Snyder to be ranked ahead of Coon in the P4P after his loss due to their size difference, but Joseph over Marinelli made no sense at the time.

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For P4P I rank guys according to the weight they currently compete at.  I don't rank them according to how good they would be if a weight class existed to magically optimize their weight.  So how good of a 79 KG guy is Dake. Not how good of a 73 KG guy is he if the weight existed and Jordan Burroughs didn't.  I don't have a problem with anyone else having a different definition because P4P is by it's nature a fantasy ranking.  

 

I also don't give guys credit for losing close at a higher weight.  I don't penalize them, but losing is losing even if you had a handicap.  No penalty, no reward.  But I do reward the guy who actually won if even if he seemed like he had a size advantage over a guy who weighed in for the same weight class.  In other words, if I was going to put Sad ahead of Snyder before their match I'd probably put him ahead after losing when he bumped up.  No penalty, no reward.  But if Snyder was better before, he's still obviously better after.  But finally if they were even before and one guy won, I'd put that guy ahead after.  

 

And for P4P purposes I wouldn't really consider anything outside of this year and last.  To me P4P is already a fantasy ranking so it's a fantasy of those guys today.  

 

Finally, I'd all but ignore margin of victory.  The 10 matches in history that the biggest percentage of fans picked wrong can be tied to people valuing margin of victory too much.  I am so glad that in FS people largely don't care how much you win by.  College wrestling fans are obsessed with margin of victory and base most of their opinions on who looked good while winning.  

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I like this list. Any list without J'Den at third is not a good list and this list has it right. Can't figure out why so many wrestling people sell him short.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯   I respect Cox I just think Taylor has been the better wrestler this year.  Just because I would rank Taylor ahead of him at the moment doesn't mean I'm selling him short.   

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Gilman has more silver than Dake and Taylor combined. He is rich!

Gilman made his team beating good guys but nothing special and had an incredible draw in what many considered a weak field. Dake and Taylor have been behind an all time great at 74kg and a guy who won bronze in both years at 86kg. So Gilman May be rich but is not even close in anything considered in P4P rankings excluding his one medal.

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Most would not define P4P as the most accomplished or 'greatest', but rather as the current best across all weights.  

 

This is an important comment here.     P4P is supposed to be, who would win, if the smaller guy weighed the same amount as the bigger guy being compared to.   But that's not typically how it's done.   Some fan bases use accomplishments for the most part (thinking UFC here).    Boxing uses a hybrid for the most part of record, resume, and eye test.    Wrestling usually stays away from this for the most part, but Flo has been doing it now and seems to be becoming part of the culture.  

 

I'm interested to see what criteria the OP is using.   It appears to be resume based.   Coon and Gwiz would be hard pressed to make the list if we use the original criteria of who would win if they were the same size   Coon is the biggest guy out there and only beats guys smaller than him or in rare cases, equal size.     Lots of questions here.  Fun topic though.     

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P4P Rankings

1. Kyle Snyder (3x World and 1x Olympic Champ, 2x Yarygin Champ)
2. Jordan Burroughs (5x World and Olympic Champ, 1x Yasar Dogu Champ)
(1st tier are my gold medal favorites)
3. Kyle Dake (1x Yarygin Silver)
4. David Taylor (1x Yarygin Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
5. James Green (1x World Silver, 1x World Bronze)
(2nd tier are my medal favorites with gold potential)
6. J'den Cox (1x Olympic Bronze, 1x World Bronze)
7. Nick Gwiazdowski (1x World Bronze, 1x Pan Am Champ, 1x Yarygin Bronze)
8. Zahid Valencia (1x Junior Silver)
(3rd tier all have good shot at medaling, but gold unlikely)
9. Zain Retherford (1x Cadet Champ, 1x World Qualifier)
10. Thomas Gilman (1x World Silver)
11. Daton Fix (1x Junior Champ, 1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Broze)
12. Logan Stieber (1x Non-Oly World Champ, 1x Pan Am Champ)
13. Alex Dieringer (1x Junior Silver, 1x Ukrainian Champ)
14. Mark Hall (1x Pan Am Champ, 2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)
15. Spencer Lee (2x Junior Champ, 1x Cadet Champ)
16. Jordan Oliver (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Yasar Dogu Bronze)
17. Adam Coon (1x Junior Bronze, 1x Cadet Champ)
(4th tier have medal potential)
 
*based my rankings on ability to perform at worlds this year at current weight, if they were to make the team

 

 

 

I like this list a lot.  I might have Dake and Taylor with Burroughs, and Snyder by himself, but I wouldn't change much else.  

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This is an important comment here.     P4P is supposed to be, who would win, if the smaller guy weighed the same amount as the bigger guy being compared to.   But that's not typically how it's done.   Some fan bases use accomplishments for the most part (thinking UFC here).    Boxing uses a hybrid for the most part of record, resume, and eye test.    Wrestling usually stays away from this for the most part, but Flo has been doing it now and seems to be becoming part of the culture.  

 

I'm interested to see what criteria the OP is using.   It appears to be resume based.   Coon and Gwiz would be hard pressed to make the list if we use the original criteria of who would win if they were the same size   Coon is the biggest guy out there and only beats guys smaller than him or in rare cases, equal size.     Lots of questions here.  Fun topic though.     

To me it's more "how good are you against your weight class" than "how good are you compared to other guys of other sizes".  But again I am ok with any definition for fantasy rankings.

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To me it's more "how good are you against your weight class" than "how good are you compared to other guys of other sizes". But again I am ok with any definition for fantasy rankings.

So essentially your version of P4P is who has the largest gap against the rest of their weight class? Wouldn't that in effect move down Synder for the NCAA P4P rankings since he was "pretty close" with Adam Coon and make Zain or Nolf definitively better since they were considered better than their respective weight classes? I'm not arguing against your definition because I certain view Snyder as the best P4P. I'm just trying to understand was P4P means, and the whole deal with Joseph being ranked P4P over Marinelli while Marinelli was ranked higher in the 165 rankings.

 

Or is P4P. Something That's very undefined and we wrestling fans just like to throw out there to emphasize how good someone is?

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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To me it's more "how good are you against your weight class" than "how good are you compared to other guys of other sizes". But again I am ok with any definition for fantasy rankings.

Then using that example, for college ncaa rankings the p4p top 10 in your opinion should go undefeated number 1s for their weightclass, then non undefeated number 1s, then the next 10 2s, not taking into consideration depth of weight or anything? Edited by maolsen

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He is not as good as either of them and most people know that.

Has a Penn State wrestler under Cael won a world medal? You can diminish Gilman's silver medal all you want because of your Iowa hatred but you can never take it from him. He wrestled and beat everyone who lined up in front of him from the last chance qualifier all the way until the world finals. He was a huge part of Team USA winning a world title over the cheating Russian's. Badass accomplishment anyway you look at it

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Since P4P is a fantasy-type subjective concept anyways, I like to think of who I would pick first in a fantasy draft regardless of weight class. Therefore my ranking order is based on likely performance right now, at current weight, against current weight's competition.

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This is an important comment here.     P4P is supposed to be, who would win, if the smaller guy weighed the same amount as the bigger guy being compared to.   But that's not typically how it's done.   Some fan bases use accomplishments for the most part (thinking UFC here).    Boxing uses a hybrid for the most part of record, resume, and eye test.    Wrestling usually stays away from this for the most part, but Flo has been doing it now and seems to be becoming part of the culture.  

 

I'm interested to see what criteria the OP is using.   It appears to be resume based.   Coon and Gwiz would be hard pressed to make the list if we use the original criteria of who would win if they were the same size   Coon is the biggest guy out there and only beats guys smaller than him or in rare cases, equal size.     Lots of questions here.  Fun topic though.     

 

My rankings are based on skill level relative to one's own competition.  I don't really like the P4P "if smaller guy weighed the same as bigger guy" argument because athleticism doesn't scale proportionally.  E.g. it's much easier to watch a lightweight and imagine him doing the exact same things +100 pounds with the exact same proportions... it's harder to imagine how Gwiz would be able to wrestle if you scaled him down. 

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Has a Penn State wrestler under Cael won a world medal? You can diminish Gilman's silver medal all you want because of your Iowa hatred but you can never take it from him. He wrestled and beat everyone who lined up in front of him from the last chance qualifier all the way until the world finals. He was a huge part of Team USA winning a world title over the cheating Russian's. Badass accomplishment anyway you look at it

Gilman earned his silver medal and is a more accomplished freestyle wrestler than Taylor or Dake.

 

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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My rankings are based on skill level relative to one's own competition.  I don't really like the P4P "if smaller guy weighed the same as bigger guy" argument because athleticism doesn't scale proportionally.  E.g. it's much easier to watch a lightweight and imagine him doing the exact same things +100 pounds with the exact same proportions... it's harder to imagine how Gwiz would be able to wrestle if you scaled him down.

 

Interesting when you put it that way. If a 125lber was proportionally the same size but weighed 285lbs he would probably be like 8 feet tall.

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My rankings are based on skill level relative to one's own competition.  I don't really like the P4P "if smaller guy weighed the same as bigger guy" argument because athleticism doesn't scale proportionally.  E.g. it's much easier to watch a lightweight and imagine him doing the exact same things +100 pounds with the exact same proportions... it's harder to imagine how Gwiz would be able to wrestle if you scaled him down. 

 

 

One other reason I don't like the p4p concept is because it is inherently bias for the smaller guy.  You always make the smaller guy bigger, not the bigger guy smaller.  The reason being is the bigger man is already at full size (between the two being compared) and doesn't need a handicap.   

 

This  came about in the late 1800's and 1920's gained more popularity in boxing.   Joe Luis eventually made it a house hold term when boxing writers viewed him as the best boxer but one who could not beat the heavyweight champion.  Promoters and writers alike really pushed for the term's mainstream acceptance.   Their motivation was to get the smaller weight classes to sell as much as the heavyweights did so they created a biased system where only the smaller guy goes up in scale.  They didn't need bigger guys coming down through p4p and having the argument of being better than the best  little guys.  Here's the most egregious aspect of the biased system.  The little guy keeps his attributes as he moves up.  So picture a 220 lbs Stephen Abas firing off lighting quick shots at Kyle Snyder.     Think Kyle would stand any chance at all?    He's not supposed to.    The system is designed to produce results of the smaller man being the better man.   

 

I do like performance within weight class or as someone else said, potential for a medal at the current year's world tournament. .   

 

 

*edited for correction above.   Should say Sugar Ray Robinson.  Somehow I wrote Joe Luis above.  I don't know how I managed to make that error but I did.  

Edited by Cletus_Tucker

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One other reason I don't like the p4p concept is because it is inherently bias for the smaller guy.  You always make the smaller guy bigger, not the bigger guy smaller.  The reason being is the bigger man is already at full size (between the two being compared) and doesn't need a handicap.   

 

This  came about in the late 1800's and 1920's gained more popularity in boxing.   Joe Luis eventually made it a house hold term when boxing writers viewed him as the best boxer but one who could not beat the heavyweight champion.  Promoters and writers alike really pushed for the term's mainstream acceptance.   Their motivation was to get the smaller weight classes to sell as much as the heavyweights did so they created a biased system where only the smaller guy goes up in scale.  They didn't need bigger guys coming down through p4p and having the argument of being better than the best  little guys.  Here's the most egregious aspect of the biased system.  The little guy keeps his attributes as he moves up.  So picture a 220 lbs Stephen Abas firing off lighting quick shots at Kyle Snyder.     Think Kyle would stand any chance at all?    He's not supposed to.    The system is designed to produce results of the smaller man being the better man.   

 

I do like performance within weight class or as someone else said, potential for a medal at the current year's world tournament. .

 

If the Snyder v Abas match took place and they were the same size, I would pick Snyder to win.

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If the Snyder v Abas match took place and they were the same size, I would pick Snyder to win.

 

 

Sticking with p4p here, Abas would be many times stronger than Snyder and twice as quick.  Three times maybe.  He was a pretty good wrestler too.   I can't see Snyder avoiding getting shut out and teched against that Abas.     

 

Now if you mean Abas puts on a 100 pound beer gut, I go with Snyder as well.   

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Sticking with p4p here, Abas would be many times stronger than Snyder and twice as quick. Three times maybe. He was a pretty good wrestler too. I can't see Snyder avoiding getting shut out and teched against that Abas.

 

Now if you mean Abas puts on a 100 pound beer gut, I go with Snyder as well.

 

Abas would not be 3 times (300%) stronger because he wouldn't get 3 times bigger. He would be about 80% stronger since he would be about 80% bigger. I think Synder is about and maybe more than 80% stronger than Abas. Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Abas would not be 3 times (300%) stronger because he wouldn't get 3 times bigger. He would be about 80% stronger since he would be about 80% bigger. I think Synder is about and maybe more than 80% stronger than Abas.

 

 

Well how strong is Abas at 125?  Whatever he's able to do at 125, he'd be able to do at 225, relative to that weight.    As you get bigger, the strength is generally less per pound.  Abas would keep his strength in p4p discussion.    Kyle is probably a strong guy, but is he "125 pounder" strong relative to his own weight class?     I would seriously doubt that, but I haven't measured either guy's strength performances.      

 

*3 times refers to speed.  

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