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Florida to allow backups in postseason


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#1 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:43 PM

This topic led to a huge debate on the Florida forums. In order to fill up district tournaments, the FHSAA will allow teams to enter a full roster plus four alternates into the post-season. All wrestlers will score team points. The top four wrestlers in each district advance to the region and the top four wrestlers in each region advance to state.

Hypothetically, a team could send multiple wrestlers to state in the same weight class and even have two guys wrestling each other in the state finals.

What other states do this (Montana, Michigan, New York,...)? How has it affected competition? How has it affected participation?

#2 stonerd7

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 06:19 PM

I know Utah does this.....saw a handful of same team state finals matches this past year


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#3 MikePorcelli

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 09:48 PM

This topic led to a huge debate on the Florida forums. In order to fill up district tournaments, the FHSAA will allow teams to enter a full roster plus four alternates into the post-season. All wrestlers will score team points. The top four wrestlers in each district advance to the region and the top four wrestlers in each region advance to state.

Hypothetically, a team could send multiple wrestlers to state in the same weight class and even have two guys wrestling each other in the state finals.

What other states do this (Montana, Michigan, New York,...)? How has it affected competition? How has it affected participation?

 

New York allows two per weight to enter League's (District's in Florida). Then, the top four move on to sectionals (Suffolk County/Section XI). With close to sixty schools with wrestling in our county, very rarely do teams have two from the same team in the finals. But, the second scorers definitely affect the team score and race.


Edited by MikePorcelli, 30 May 2018 - 09:48 PM.


#4 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 03:12 AM

I know Utah does this.....saw a handful of same team state finals matches this past year


Would you say this has been good, bad, or made no difference?

#5 stonerd7

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 03:32 AM

I didn't know they did this until I got there, and personally was not a big fan of it.  You could tell that the kids really knew each other, and usually made for much lower scoring matches with a lot less action...That, and it seemed like those teams' fans did not know who to cheer for.

 

I do not mean to hate on their state tournament, but what irked me more than anything is that they have 6 different classes with 20-25ish schools per statewide.  Of those, 16 kids are making the state tournament.....made for a watered down level of competition with losing/.500 records all over the brackets.



#6 KTG119

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 03:56 AM

my own somewhat conflicting views on this:

 

in favor of....other individual sports like track, swimming, etc get multiple entries per event and kids from same school can go 1-2 at states. if you're the 2nd best kid in the state, why not have that opportunity instead of being on bench?

 

not as much in favor of: rich get richer, that much harder to stop a dynasty that is more likely to have additional point scorers they can throw at you. 


Edited by KTG119, 31 May 2018 - 06:52 AM.


#7 SetonHallPirate

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 05:14 AM

This topic led to a huge debate on the Florida forums. In order to fill up district tournaments, the FHSAA will allow teams to enter a full roster plus four alternates into the post-season. All wrestlers will score team points. The top four wrestlers in each district advance to the region and the top four wrestlers in each region advance to state.

Hypothetically, a team could send multiple wrestlers to state in the same weight class and even have two guys wrestling each other in the state finals.

What other states do this (Montana, Michigan, New York,...)? How has it affected competition? How has it affected participation?

Can I get a link? Thanks!


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#8 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 07:05 AM

“The Florida Wrestling Room” on Facebook.

Aside from New York (which allows this but only qualifies one from each section) and Michigan (can anyone explain how their’s works?), all of the states with similar systems are very rural states with low populations and a low amount of schools in each classification (<40) who are using this system to fill up state brackets.

Florida has a huge population with more than 130 schools in each classification and no issues filling state brackets. Occasionally someone might make it to state with a record around .500, but it’s usually someone from a top team who wrestled a brutal schedule. One thing we lack is depth. If you follow Florida wrestling, you’ll notice we have some pretty high end talent at the top but not much else. Same thing for teams - the best teams are full of studs and could hang almost anywhere, but there’s a pretty big drop off after that. Top teams routinely fill holes with wrestlers from neighboring schools.

This change was made in response to byes in the postseason. Due to small rosters, there are byes making it out of districts to the region level. Rather than reclassify and make districts larger, this is the change that was made.

Edited by superbowlhomeboy, 31 May 2018 - 07:25 AM.


#9 Hofman19

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 07:41 AM

“The Florida Wrestling Room” on Facebook.

Aside from New York (which allows this but only qualifies one from each section) and Michigan (can anyone explain how their’s works?), all of the states with similar systems are very rural states with low populations and a low amount of schools in each classification (<40) who are using this system to fill up state brackets.

Florida has a huge population with more than 130 schools in each classification and no issues filling state brackets. Occasionally someone might make it to state with a record around .500, but it’s usually someone from a top team who wrestled a brutal schedule. One thing we lack is depth. If you follow Florida wrestling, you’ll notice we have some pretty high end talent at the top but not much else. Same thing for teams - the best teams are full of studs and could hang almost anywhere, but there’s a pretty big drop off after that. Top teams routinely fill holes with wrestlers from neighboring schools.

This change was made in response to byes in the postseason. Due to small rosters, there are byes making it out of districts to the region level. Rather than reclassify and make districts larger, this is the change that was made.

New York did away with that one per section system a few years ago.  We now have wildcards and because of that, there has been an occasion or two where teammates both advanced to the state tournament.  

 

Probably the most famous example was the Soria twins from King Parks.  They ended up being in the same NYSPHSAA bracket back-to-back years.   And while they never faced each other in the finals, they did meet both years.  In 2009, they drew each other in the quarterfinals, with one forfeiting and the other going on to win the state crown.  The following year, they met in the consolation semis, and the one who had forfeited in 2009, accepted a forfeit in 2010 and then took 3rd.  


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#10 Divided42

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 02:19 PM

In Michigan you can have multiple entries for each weight but only 14 entries per team. For instance Adam Coon wrestled his teammate Brian Moran in the state finals his sophomore year.

#11 TobusRex

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 02:59 AM

Sounds like a pretty good idea. All the kids get a chance to participate and as long as they qualify legitimately for State, who cares if a backup faces the starter in the finals? If the goal is to identify the top 8, or top 4 in the state, sounds like a great idea.

 

I remember losing to a pretty good backup in HS, 4-2, and I placed at state a couple times. Some of those kids riding the bench behind state champs are pretty damned salty (my JR High coach was a career backup to a 3 time state champ). Got to figure practicing against the best in the state will be pretty good for a kid's skills (although it might crush his confidence losing all the time).


Edited by TobusRex, 01 June 2018 - 03:01 AM.


#12 cmsu34

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 06:19 PM

Interesting idea, seems like FL needs to go down in classes I think 6 is too many for any state. How do they decide who gets to fill those spots?

Edited by cmsu34, 01 June 2018 - 06:21 PM.


#13 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 02:33 AM

Interesting idea, seems like FL needs to go down in classes I think 6 is too many for any state. How do they decide who gets to fill those spots?


Florida has three classes with 120+ schools in each division.

#14 simple

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 04:26 AM

Good way for the rich to get richer.

Should’ve just realigned/increased district sizes. Don’t complain about byes when you put 5 teams in a district and 4 advance.

#15 Show_Me

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 12:05 PM

Florida has three classes with 120+ schools in each division.


This many schools in each Division and there are still byes coming out of Districts ?
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#16 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 12:26 PM

Most districts are 5-7 teams, but some are as high as 12. It is mostly an issue in 1A in the smaller schools. Probably would be easier to just balance the districts next time we reclassify.

#17 cbg

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 02:07 PM

I would like to see more states allow schools to enter 2 wrestlers per weight classification in the district tournament.  For team scoring purposes i could see how a team should be required to declare which wrestler would score the team points.



#18 neutralposition

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:54 AM

Texas does not allow extras in the postseason, so there has been at least one recent state championship match occur during wrestle offs.  Texas does allow second teams and JV to compete during the season at tournaments, so long as the tournament allows it.  One team's returning wrestler placed 3rd at state.  He was the number 1 ranked kid all year long.  Their backup at that wrestled a great season and finished the regular season as the number 2 kid in the state.  They battled it out for the starting spot, and the JV wrestler won the wrestle off.  He went on to win state.  The loser of the wrestle off had no where to go since the next two weight classes also had the 3rd place and then 2nd place finishers in state that year.



#19 KTG119

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:24 AM

New York did away with that one per section system a few years ago.  We now have wildcards and because of that, there has been an occasion or two where teammates both advanced to the state tournament.  

 

Probably the most famous example was the Soria twins from King Parks.  They ended up being in the same NYSPHSAA bracket back-to-back years.   And while they never faced each other in the finals, they did meet both years.  In 2009, they drew each other in the quarterfinals, with one forfeiting and the other going on to win the state crown.  The following year, they met in the consolation semis, and the one who had forfeited in 2009, accepted a forfeit in 2010 and then took 3rd.  

slightly off topic but your comment on the Soria twins made me think of the Mickiewicz twins here in Virginia back in the early 90s

 

https://pilotonline....34f7462f7e.html



#20 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted Yesterday, 01:16 PM

For what it’s worth - the state went back to one post season entry per weight per team after the coaches pretty much rioted.




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