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superbowlhomeboy

Florida to allow backups in postseason

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This topic led to a huge debate on the Florida forums. In order to fill up district tournaments, the FHSAA will allow teams to enter a full roster plus four alternates into the post-season. All wrestlers will score team points. The top four wrestlers in each district advance to the region and the top four wrestlers in each region advance to state.

 

Hypothetically, a team could send multiple wrestlers to state in the same weight class and even have two guys wrestling each other in the state finals.

 

What other states do this (Montana, Michigan, New York,...)? How has it affected competition? How has it affected participation?

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This topic led to a huge debate on the Florida forums. In order to fill up district tournaments, the FHSAA will allow teams to enter a full roster plus four alternates into the post-season. All wrestlers will score team points. The top four wrestlers in each district advance to the region and the top four wrestlers in each region advance to state.

 

Hypothetically, a team could send multiple wrestlers to state in the same weight class and even have two guys wrestling each other in the state finals.

 

What other states do this (Montana, Michigan, New York,...)? How has it affected competition? How has it affected participation?

 

New York allows two per weight to enter League's (District's in Florida). Then, the top four move on to sectionals (Suffolk County/Section XI). With close to sixty schools with wrestling in our county, very rarely do teams have two from the same team in the finals. But, the second scorers definitely affect the team score and race.

Edited by MikePorcelli

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I didn't know they did this until I got there, and personally was not a big fan of it.  You could tell that the kids really knew each other, and usually made for much lower scoring matches with a lot less action...That, and it seemed like those teams' fans did not know who to cheer for.

 

I do not mean to hate on their state tournament, but what irked me more than anything is that they have 6 different classes with 20-25ish schools per statewide.  Of those, 16 kids are making the state tournament.....made for a watered down level of competition with losing/.500 records all over the brackets.

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my own somewhat conflicting views on this:

 

in favor of....other individual sports like track, swimming, etc get multiple entries per event and kids from same school can go 1-2 at states. if you're the 2nd best kid in the state, why not have that opportunity instead of being on bench?

 

not as much in favor of: rich get richer, that much harder to stop a dynasty that is more likely to have additional point scorers they can throw at you. 

Edited by KTG119

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This topic led to a huge debate on the Florida forums. In order to fill up district tournaments, the FHSAA will allow teams to enter a full roster plus four alternates into the post-season. All wrestlers will score team points. The top four wrestlers in each district advance to the region and the top four wrestlers in each region advance to state.

 

Hypothetically, a team could send multiple wrestlers to state in the same weight class and even have two guys wrestling each other in the state finals.

 

What other states do this (Montana, Michigan, New York,...)? How has it affected competition? How has it affected participation?

Can I get a link? Thanks!

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“The Florida Wrestling Room” on Facebook.

 

Aside from New York (which allows this but only qualifies one from each section) and Michigan (can anyone explain how their’s works?), all of the states with similar systems are very rural states with low populations and a low amount of schools in each classification (

 

Florida has a huge population with more than 130 schools in each classification and no issues filling state brackets. Occasionally someone might make it to state with a record around .500, but it’s usually someone from a top team who wrestled a brutal schedule. One thing we lack is depth. If you follow Florida wrestling, you’ll notice we have some pretty high end talent at the top but not much else. Same thing for teams - the best teams are full of studs and could hang almost anywhere, but there’s a pretty big drop off after that. Top teams routinely fill holes with wrestlers from neighboring schools.

 

This change was made in response to byes in the postseason. Due to small rosters, there are byes making it out of districts to the region level. Rather than reclassify and make districts larger, this is the change that was made.

Edited by superbowlhomeboy

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“The Florida Wrestling Room” on Facebook.

 

Aside from New York (which allows this but only qualifies one from each section) and Michigan (can anyone explain how their’s works?), all of the states with similar systems are very rural states with low populations and a low amount of schools in each classification (

 

Florida has a huge population with more than 130 schools in each classification and no issues filling state brackets. Occasionally someone might make it to state with a record around .500, but it’s usually someone from a top team who wrestled a brutal schedule. One thing we lack is depth. If you follow Florida wrestling, you’ll notice we have some pretty high end talent at the top but not much else. Same thing for teams - the best teams are full of studs and could hang almost anywhere, but there’s a pretty big drop off after that. Top teams routinely fill holes with wrestlers from neighboring schools.

 

This change was made in response to byes in the postseason. Due to small rosters, there are byes making it out of districts to the region level. Rather than reclassify and make districts larger, this is the change that was made.

New York did away with that one per section system a few years ago.  We now have wildcards and because of that, there has been an occasion or two where teammates both advanced to the state tournament.  

 

Probably the most famous example was the Soria twins from King Parks.  They ended up being in the same NYSPHSAA bracket back-to-back years.   And while they never faced each other in the finals, they did meet both years.  In 2009, they drew each other in the quarterfinals, with one forfeiting and the other going on to win the state crown.  The following year, they met in the consolation semis, and the one who had forfeited in 2009, accepted a forfeit in 2010 and then took 3rd.  

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In Michigan you can have multiple entries for each weight but only 14 entries per team. For instance Adam Coon wrestled his teammate Brian Moran in the state finals his sophomore year.

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Sounds like a pretty good idea. All the kids get a chance to participate and as long as they qualify legitimately for State, who cares if a backup faces the starter in the finals? If the goal is to identify the top 8, or top 4 in the state, sounds like a great idea.

 

I remember losing to a pretty good backup in HS, 4-2, and I placed at state a couple times. Some of those kids riding the bench behind state champs are pretty damned salty (my JR High coach was a career backup to a 3 time state champ). Got to figure practicing against the best in the state will be pretty good for a kid's skills (although it might crush his confidence losing all the time).

Edited by TobusRex

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Interesting idea, seems like FL needs to go down in classes I think 6 is too many for any state. How do they decide who gets to fill those spots?

Edited by cmsu34

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Good way for the rich to get richer.

 

Should’ve just realigned/increased district sizes. Don’t complain about byes when you put 5 teams in a district and 4 advance.

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I would like to see more states allow schools to enter 2 wrestlers per weight classification in the district tournament.  For team scoring purposes i could see how a team should be required to declare which wrestler would score the team points.

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Texas does not allow extras in the postseason, so there has been at least one recent state championship match occur during wrestle offs.  Texas does allow second teams and JV to compete during the season at tournaments, so long as the tournament allows it.  One team's returning wrestler placed 3rd at state.  He was the number 1 ranked kid all year long.  Their backup at that wrestled a great season and finished the regular season as the number 2 kid in the state.  They battled it out for the starting spot, and the JV wrestler won the wrestle off.  He went on to win state.  The loser of the wrestle off had no where to go since the next two weight classes also had the 3rd place and then 2nd place finishers in state that year.

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New York did away with that one per section system a few years ago.  We now have wildcards and because of that, there has been an occasion or two where teammates both advanced to the state tournament.  

 

Probably the most famous example was the Soria twins from King Parks.  They ended up being in the same NYSPHSAA bracket back-to-back years.   And while they never faced each other in the finals, they did meet both years.  In 2009, they drew each other in the quarterfinals, with one forfeiting and the other going on to win the state crown.  The following year, they met in the consolation semis, and the one who had forfeited in 2009, accepted a forfeit in 2010 and then took 3rd.  

slightly off topic but your comment on the Soria twins made me think of the Mickiewicz twins here in Virginia back in the early 90s

 

https://pilotonline.com/sports/columnist/bob-molinaro/article_0b311e74-5e84-5014-a2f7-6b34f7462f7e.html

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Oregon allows 2 entries per weight, and we have since at least the 1980's.  Our team has had teammate state finals matches twice. 

 

Disadvantage: 

Like mentioned previously, rich get richer (or stay rich, in our case).  We have long dynasties partially due to this.  It has definitely kept our team from winning a few more team titles.  But, every school has the same opportunity to field 2 competitors per weight, so I would never complain about that with a clear conscience.  During the season, most of our tournaments allow 2 or more entries per weight, but we have to designate a scorer.  That simple change could keep that problem to a minimum.  The other version of rich get richer is that schools will get transfers even if there is a tough kid at the weight already.  But, kids want to wrestle there because the team is good / coaching is good.  So, I have a hard time complaining about that as well, provided all the rules are followed.

 

Advantages:

Lowers incidents of extreme weight cutting.  For example, I might be a state podium guy at my weight of 170, but the number one guy in the state at 170 is my teammate.  I also have tough teammates at 160 and 182.  This is common, since tough kids often come in weight clusters.  So, if I even want to be able to participate in the post season, I might kill myself to get to 152.  I know:  what about bodyfat certification? Well, the kid would just cut himself down in the off season to be able to certify down there (or cheat the certification).  Less weight cutting would be the easiest sell to allow for more than one representative per team. Health and safety arguments are much easier for non-wrestling administrators to understand. 

 

Allows kids to participate who should be able to.  This is not an "everyone gets a trophy" thing.  This only gets your wrestler into the regional tournament.  If they are the 2nd best kid in state, they deserve the chance to prove it.

 

Keeps kids out for the sport.  We have had the 3 deep problem result in kids quitting the team.  It is not a common occurrence, because we are a small high school.  I imagine that there are many kids who give up in states with the one representative rule.  I saw it in college several times when I was competing. I was only able to compete in Pac 10s once, but I stuck around partly because I knew that being the guy at my weight was realistic (mostly, I stuck around because I love the sport).

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In Idaho each team brings their #1 and #2 to district. Either or both can qualify for state. 32 man brackets at district. 16 man brackets at state.  You do see finals match ups of teammates. I am personally all for this. Why shouldn't a back up be allowed to compete if they are good enough to beat everyone else starter? It's called depth. 

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What other sport only allows the starter to participate?

 

Swimming has multiple per event

Track has multiple per event

Golf has mutiple

etc

 

Tennis might be the only one like that but it's a weird state series in most states.

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I would love it if all states would do as Oregon.  Allowing multiple kids from the same school the opportunity to compete in the state tournament would help grow the sport of wrestling.

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