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Opinions on push-out vs edge of mat scoring please


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#1 Peso

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 08:48 PM

Asking for a friend

 

Is there a way to morph the folkstyle and freestyle rules that would make a superior sport, and improve interest and success in freestyle?

 

I think it can be done, but I imagine greater minds than mine can come up with a few ideas.  Here are a couple thoughts I have.

 

1.  Incorporate the push-out rule into folkstyle.  Maybe get the coaches off of the mat area, and allow folkstyle scoring, where applicable, but you get at least 1 if you can't score, but were able to get all his supporting points outside the cylinder.  Eliminate edge of the mat scrambles, where the coinciding mat circles are closest, but still allow push-out if ref believes it's safe.  Mark the area with zones which allow the folkstyle edge of mat scoring, and strategies.  The area where coaches chairs are has the longest mat space outside of the cylinder.  

 

2.  Allow guts, possibly laces, although I'm not sure I like that, but keep the brutal folkstyle top work.  I believe a grinding, crunching top man with a good gut will inspire bottom men to want to get out of there...might bring back bottom wrestling.  (Is there a way to not score back points while scrambling or while Granby rolling, yet giving points for guts and tilts?)  Zain Retherford would be a diety if not an actual god in this sport.  A gut that allows the escape is good action, and nearly as fun as the catch and release of the 70's.  Top man would have to unlock if you can get to 3 supporting points type position.

 

3.  Any suggestions?  I know this is fantasy island stuff, but our current freestyle team has me fired up more than ever about how great it is to be a world power.  I still prefer folkstyle, but the idea of making slight changes to improve our freestyle team is a lot easier to swallow now that I see how gratifying it is to be where we are right now.  Please, let's get together and MWGA, hehe.


Edited by Peso, 01 June 2018 - 08:51 PM.

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#2 TobusRex

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 01:19 AM

1. I dislike the pushout rule as it's currently applied in FS. I think that pushout related points should only be awarded if 1) a wrestler is fleeing the mat or 2) a wrestler went out of bounds when the other wrestler PROBABLY would've had a takedown. That removes the possibility of a guy just pushing another guy around to stall and get pushout points. Since that's so subjective it might be best to leave it be.

 

2. I like the mat wrestling as it is. I'd change a few things if a could though: 1) I"d award exposure points to the bottom guy if the top guy exposes himself (aka Chris Perry style), 2) I'd award a riding time point for every minute of riding time, but referees should aggressively call stalling on top if he's not actively working for turns. If the guy on top doesn't work for turns the wrestlers are returned back to neutral position 3) not really a mat issue, but I'd change the escape rules: I'd award 2 points for takedowns and none for escapes when the wrestlers start in neutral position (because the catch and release, 2 pts for 1, seems silly as hell). If anything it would increase the edge good offensive wrestlers have in neutral. Escapes when a guy starts the period in the down position still should count as a point though.


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#3 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 02:00 AM

1. I dislike the pushout rule as it's currently applied in FS. I think that pushout related points should only be awarded if 1) a wrestler is fleeing the mat or 2) a wrestler went out of bounds when the other wrestler PROBABLY would've had a takedown. That removes the possibility of a guy just pushing another guy around to stall and get pushout points. Since that's so subjective it might be best to leave it be.
 
2. I like the mat wrestling as it is. I'd change a few things if a could though: 1) I"d award exposure points to the bottom guy if the top guy exposes himself (aka Chris Perry style), 2) I'd award a riding time point for every minute of riding time, but referees should aggressively call stalling on top if he's not actively working for turns. If the guy on top doesn't work for turns the wrestlers are returned back to neutral position 3) not really a mat issue, but I'd change the escape rules: I'd award 2 points for takedowns and none for escapes when the wrestlers start in neutral position (because the catch and release, 2 pts for 1, seems silly as hell). If anything it would increase the edge good offensive wrestlers have in neutral. Escapes when a guy starts the period in the down position still should count as a point though.


I really dislike the idea of returning guys to their feet without awarding an escape point. It gives the bottom guy zero incentive to work for an escape. Additionally it gives the top man incentive to stall on top knowing after a short while they will be returning to their feet. The escape point is a small piece that keeps mat wrestling balanced.

#4 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 04:58 AM

anyone who wants to see the step out penalty in action should watch the cadet and U23 freestyle matches going on right now on Flo (coincidental shameless plug). 

 

it works great. way better than high school and college rules imo. the step out penalty does not eliminate edge of mat scoring. there is continuation for moves started inside the cylinder just like there is in folkstyle. the transition of watching wrestling with the step out and then without is very painful to me. 


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#5 TobusRex

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 05:17 AM

I really dislike the idea of returning guys to their feet without awarding an escape point. It gives the bottom guy zero incentive to work for an escape. Additionally it gives the top man incentive to stall on top knowing after a short while they will be returning to their feet. The escape point is a small piece that keeps mat wrestling balanced.

 

I kinda see it having the opposite effect. Since taking guys down awards two and releasing awards zero points, it seems it would encourage more shot taking, more takedown attempts. The guy on bottom is motivated by the knowledge that every minute that passes is another point riding time for his opponent. Like I said, I'd keep the escape point if a guy starts the period in the down position and gets away.  I just don't like the escape point in neutral periods. Seems goofy to award a guy a point because the other guy intentionally let him up (just so he could take him down again).



#6 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 05:53 AM

I kinda see it having the opposite effect. Since taking guys down awards two and releasing awards zero points, it seems it would encourage more shot taking, more takedown attempts. The guy on bottom is motivated by the knowledge that every minute that passes is another point riding time for his opponent. Like I said, I'd keep the escape point if a guy starts the period in the down position and gets away. I just don't like the escape point in neutral periods. Seems goofy to award a guy a point because the other guy intentionally let him up (just so he could take him down again).

I agree it would improve neutral wrestling.
This would however essentially all but kill mat wrestling. 1 point per minute of riding time is not enough incentive to continue mat wrestling.

Edited by BigTenFanboy, 02 June 2018 - 05:53 AM.





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