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Who is replacing Zain at PSU


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#41 SC_Wrestling

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 01:35 AM

What is the story on Manville? Is he just happy training Greco with Provisor?

#42 TBar1977

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 01:42 AM

What is the story on Manville? Is he just happy training Greco with Provisor?

 

 

He must be because he is not likely to beat out Cenzo or Hall. I doubt he could go 157 or 184 either, so what is left?


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#43 steamboat_charlie

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 02:05 AM

I don't see how tOSU is even in this conversation. PSU loses Retherford, tOSU loses the greatest US wrestler since John Smith and two very good guys in NATO and BOJO.

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Nobody is really "in the conversation" if that's how you want to look at it.  I think at this point all we're trying to do is figure out who could theoretically catch PSU.  MSU is saying ~130 points... I'd say ~140 but we're splitting hairs at that point.  So the question is what team can score 130+ at the high end of their potential outcomes?

 

- I could see Iowa getting to 130+ but they have a ton of question marks. They probably need 8 AA's and 3 finalists to hit 130, so DeSanto, Murin, Wilcke, Warner all need to come through.  They need big points out of Kemerer but we have no idea how he'll perform at 174, which is strong at the top even if Zahid moves up.  

 

- Oklahoma State's absolute top end is probably ~130, but that requires a virtually perfect performance.  Talking 10 AA's and 1 champ in Fix.  Their issue is they only have 1 title contender, and their recent history at NCAA's probably doesn't point toward a perfect outcome.  

 

- Ohio State, if they put out their optimal 2019 "win now" lineup, could score 130+ but it's unlikely.  What they do have going for them are 3 title contenders in McKenna, Martin, Moore.  With 8 AA's and 2 champs they could hit the mid 130's, but that requires 3 of Hayes, Singletary, Campbell, and Romero to AA, which IMO is a stretch. 



#44 pish6969

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 02:18 AM

133 looks to be crazy deep and could have some literal monsters in Gross, Fix, Suriano, Micic, Wilson and Vito. That doesn't even account for AA's in Pletcher and Parker. If RBY AA's he will have navigated one of the best fields a TF has done in some time!

I think Fix will be at 125. Gross is a monster, the rest I wouldn’t call “monsters.” Suriano a monster at 125, he’ll be “very good” at 133. RBY more athletic than anyone at this weight. This isn’t freestyle so I won’t worry about Vito lacing him across the mat.

We’ll see how it plays out but if I were picking 133 right now..

Gross
Suriano
Micic
RBY
Wilson
Pletcher
Vito
DeSanto

Obviously I’m very high on RBY. Yes I’m a PSU fan, but I haven’t been Wrong over the years picking freshman and where they’d end up. I called Hall pre season. I called Cenzo as finalist, Nolf finalist, Bo finalist all before they stepped on mat their freshman years. So this year’s top 4 freshman from PSU will be RBY. I think Berge AA’s. 4-8. 125 I’ll pick round 12

Edit..I also called Yianni last year and Spencer

And before anyone chimes in with “who has he beaten,” I go by my eyeballs.


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Edited by pish6969, 05 June 2018 - 03:36 AM.

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#45 TBar1977

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 03:13 AM

I think Fix will be at 125. Gross is a monster, the rest I wouldn’t call “monsters.” Suriano a monster at 125, he’ll be “very good” at 133. RBY more athletic than anyone at this weight. This isn’t freestyle so I won’t worry about Vito lacing him across the mat.

We’ll see how it plays out but if I were picking 133 right now..

Gross
Suriano
Micic
RBY
Wilson
Pletcher
Vito
DeSanto

Obviously I’m very high on RBY. Yes I’m a PSU fan, but I haven’t been Wrong over the years picking freshman and where they’d end up. I called Hall pre season. I called Cenzo as finalist, Nolf finalist, Bo finalist all before they stepped on mat their freshman years. So this year’s top 4 freshman from PSU will be RBY. I think Berge AA’s. 4-8. 125 I’ll pick round 12

And before anyone chimes in with “who has he beaten,” I go by my eyeballs.


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Smart move to trust your own eyes. That "but who has he beaten" thought process becomes moot when the new guy is just better than most of the old guys. 


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#46 MSU158

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 03:34 AM

I think Fix will be at 125. Gross is a monster, the rest I wouldn’t call “monsters.” Suriano a monster at 125, he’ll be “very good” at 133. RBY more athletic than anyone at this weight. This isn’t freestyle so I won’t worry about Vito lacing him across the mat.

We’ll see how it plays out but if I were picking 133 right now..

Gross
Suriano
Micic
RBY
Wilson
Pletcher
Vito
DeSanto

Obviously I’m very high on RBY. Yes I’m a PSU fan, but I haven’t been Wrong over the years picking freshman and where they’d end up. I called Hall pre season. I called Cenzo as finalist, Nolf finalist, Bo finalist all before they stepped on mat their freshman years. So this year’s top 4 freshman from PSU will be RBY. I think Berge AA’s. 4-8. 125 I’ll pick round 12

And before anyone chimes in with “who has he beaten,” I go by my eyeballs.


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He will also have to contend with Lizak's riding without that huge first year of getting used to DI riding.

 

Hey, I don't doubt PSU upperweights.  The track record is outstanding.  However, with the exception of Nico, they haven't exactly lit the world on fire from 125-141.  Now, I do believe RBY will prove to be a top guy, BUT as a TF against probably the deepest field at ANY weight, I just can't pick him to AA preseason.

 

Your eyes or not, you just don't have ANY data to support it.  Let's revisit it in mid-January.  As I said a bunch last year,  PSU has done too much to doubt them.  However, RBY isn't at a weight thinned out like Berge.  A lot of these guys are very physical and very tough on top.  These are the most difficult factors for a TF to get past.



#47 pish6969

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 03:42 AM

Your eyes or not, you just don't have ANY data to support it. Let's revisit it in mid-January. As I said a bunch last year, PSU has done too much to doubt them. However, RBY isn't at a weight thinned out like Berge. A lot of these guys are very physical and very tough on top. These are the most difficult factors for a TF to get past.

Believe it or not I have come to respect your knowledge. The difference between me and you is I pick the winner earlier.

You have always been one to take wait and see approach which is fine but not truly predictive since it’s already happened.

For example when you picked Zain for 4th going into sophomore year which was crazy.

I just don’t see the 133 class as juggernauts like you and others. The only elite wrestlers I see there are Gross and Suriano. Micic is very good as well but besides those three I’ll go with the athlete. RBY a better version of Wilson.

Yes we can revisit in January, but that’s not as much fun as putting it out there before they hit the mats

P.S..I’ll give you another early pick. Aaron Brooks will win it all as a frosh in 2019/2020


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Edited by pish6969, 05 June 2018 - 04:06 AM.


#48 MSU158

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 04:02 AM

Believe it or not I have come to respect your knowledge. The difference between me and you is I pick the winner earlier.

You have always been one to take wait and see approach which is fine but not truly predictive since it’s already happened.

For example when you picked Zain for 4th going into sophomore year which was crazy.

I just don’t see the 133 class as juggernauts like you and others. The only elite wrestlers I see there are Gross and Suriano. Micic is very good as well but besides those three I’ll go with the athlete. RBY a better version of Wilson.

Yes we can revisit in January, but that’s not as much fun as putting it out there before they hit the mats


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Again, I mainly go by data to start the season.  In the case of Zain, he was bumping up a weight and there was very little data to support his running through 149.  Hell, he didn't even wrestle a DI match while redshirting.  Tsirtsis, Sorenson and Clagon were all returning.  Also, to be fair, he wasn't exactly a bonus pt. machine his 1st year.  He mainly won on the strength of his riding.

 

So, as a guy that isn't in the room watching them practice, I needed to see a solid portion of his 1st year at 149 to really see how much he had improved.  By, B1G's you could tell that Tsirtsis had truly regressed and Zain had fully distanced himself from the pack.

 

Finally, I don't argue that RBY sure looks like a legit athlete.  Where my contention lies is with the maturity gap.  The physicality difference is hard to measure and I don't think RBY can match the NCAA version of Wilson.  Hell, he was even muscling Gross around and Gross was probably the most "physical" guy at the weight.

 

Any which way, you are blessed with untold riches as a PSU fan.  Pick one their guys to win right away and the odds are in your favor!


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#49 paboom

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 04:32 AM

133 for 2019 could be this year's 125 where the two finalists get knocked out in the semis.

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#50 TBar1977

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 04:45 AM

Again, I mainly go by data to start the season.  In the case of Zain, he was bumping up a weight and there was very little data to support his running through 149.  Hell, he didn't even wrestle a DI match while redshirting.  Tsirtsis, Sorenson and Clagon were all returning.  Also, to be fair, he wasn't exactly a bonus pt. machine his 1st year.  He mainly won on the strength of his riding.

 

So, as a guy that isn't in the room watching them practice, I needed to see a solid portion of his 1st year at 149 to really see how much he had improved.  By, B1G's you could tell that Tsirtsis had truly regressed and Zain had fully distanced himself from the pack.

 

Finally, I don't argue that RBY sure looks like a legit athlete.  Where my contention lies is with the maturity gap.  The physicality difference is hard to measure and I don't think RBY can match the NCAA version of Wilson.  Hell, he was even muscling Gross around and Gross was probably the most "physical" guy at the weight.

 

Any which way, you are blessed with untold riches as a PSU fan.  Pick one their guys to win right away and the odds are in your favor!

 

 

 

MSU, Zain lost to only two guys his true freshman year, the top guy 2x and the #2 guy who barely beat him in OT. Zain also dismantled Henderson in free during the offseason. His resume was better than Sorenson's or Clagon's. Tsirtsis had a better resume, but Zain was really coming on. I could see picking him 2nd, but 4th was a stretch imo.


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#51 MSU158

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 05:28 AM

MSU, Zain lost to only two guys his true freshman year, the top guy 2x and the #2 guy who barely beat him in OT. Zain also dismantled Henderson in free during the offseason. His resume was better than Sorenson's or Clagon's. Tsirtsis had a better resume, but Zain was really coming on. I could see picking him 2nd, but 4th was a stretch imo.

My reasoning was solid, as I often worry that leg riders will continue their advantage when they move up in weights.  Obviously, I was wrong.  He not only broke people in the top position, but he increased he neutral activity many times over.

 

As far as Henderson goes, he was a 141lber until 2016.................



#52 bnwtwg

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 07:02 AM

I'm surprised people are speculating that Bo might go to 197. Will Cael let him do that? There's already talented guys riding the bench and that might snarl stuff up even worse. Frankly, I'm surprised Cassar hasn't transferred already.

 

Cael was once an undefeated 184 champ who bumped up to 197 because he preferred continuing his results over pulling weight and sacrificing strength and technique training, so that would be pretty hypocritical of him if Nickal has outgrown the weight physically and/ or mentally. But Nickal just doesn't pass the eye test at 197 - he looks like he walks around at no more than maaaybe 190 to me?


Edited by bnwtwg, 05 June 2018 - 07:03 AM.

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#53 BigTenFanboy

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 09:34 AM

Cael was once an undefeated 184 champ who bumped up to 197 because he preferred continuing his results over pulling weight and sacrificing strength and technique training, so that would be pretty hypocritical of him if Nickal has outgrown the weight physically and/ or mentally. But Nickal just doesn't pass the eye test at 197 - he looks like he walks around at no more than maaaybe 190 to me?


Nickal barely passes the eye test at 184 as well. Lol

#54 cangemi

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 02:17 PM

Anyone know how big Cassar can get, also does nevillis have a red shirt left?

Edited by cangemi, 05 June 2018 - 02:18 PM.


#55 pish6969

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 02:54 PM

Anyone know how big Cassar can get, also does nevillis have a red shirt left?


Nevills used his redshirt already


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#56 TBar1977

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 01:50 AM

Penn State got 141.5 pts this past year with 141 of them coming from just 8 weight classes. They lose Zain's 25 points, but they might be able to make those points up else where. Hypothetically speaking ...

 

125 - + 2 pts

133 - + 8 to 10 pts 

141 - maintain or improve +2 points

149 - Berge gets 10 points so there is the minus 15 pts

157 - Nolf go0es from 23 to 28, so + 5 points

165 - Cenzo from 21 to 23, so + 2 points

174 - Hall in a Zahid less 174 bracket goes from 20.5 to 25, so + 4.5 points

184 - Rasheed gets 15 points, + 5.5 from what he got last year at 197

197 - Nickal 23 points, same as what he got last year at 184

Hwt - 15 points, this is + 5.5 from 2018

 

That is a best case all world outcome for Penn State, but it is 160 points. Not going to happen obviously, but if they even come close they easily make 140 points. 


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#57 TobusRex

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 09:44 AM

Cael was once an undefeated 184 champ who bumped up to 197 because he preferred continuing his results over pulling weight and sacrificing strength and technique training, so that would be pretty hypocritical of him if Nickal has outgrown the weight physically and/ or mentally. But Nickal just doesn't pass the eye test at 197 - he looks like he walks around at no more than maaaybe 190 to me?

 

Yeah, but diff situation for Cael. He wasn't dorking up ISU's rotation by moving up to 197. PSU already has 2 AA-level guys at 197, no guarantee that either can pull down to 184. I don't doubt Bo would do very well for himself at 197, I'm just saying PSU has a logjam of talent and it would cause more of that talent to go "to waste" than otherwise.



#58 Housebuye

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 12:30 AM

tOSU is not a title contender in 2019.

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They are just as much of a title Contender as Iowa and osu next year. PSU is a heavy favorite though.

Ohio State has 5 guys they are likely top 4 (133, 141, 149, 184, 197), 1 guy st least seeded to AA (157) and legit AA contenders at 125, 165, 174 and hvwt

10 AAs is unlikely but there are no glaring holes. 5 top 4s is a lot of points, especially if they can put most of those 5 into the finals. I think 4 have a good chance (141, 149, 184, 197)




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