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Article about Snyder-Sadulaev match

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NJWC, I am not from Russia, but I have lived/trained there many years ago. I also read their forums and watch the interviews, and sometimes I translate for the forum, as you've seen. My prediction is based on few things:

 

1. I think people don't realize how off Sad was in 2017, including Snyder. He was basically not training and actively gaining weight following marriage, which is a huge thing in that part of the world. He started  actual training shortly before Russian nationals. 

 

2. With top level Russian wrestlers, it is very hard to beat the same top dude few times in a row, also due to the coaches. JB found this out the hard way in Rio with Geduev. One of the reasons is that Russian coaches are very good at making adjustments, and Snyder's tactic is  somewhat predictable.  

 

3. Note in the 1st match, Snyder could not get to Sad's legs even once in open space or take him down there and he tried. Yet, Sad got to Snyder's legs. This will repeat itself.  It will be very hard for Snyder to score from open space. Further, Snyder gets scored on in almost every match. Sad will score on him few times. He is faster than Snyder.

 

Those are my reasons, but I may be wrong of course, it could be Snyder has improved more than that Sad version in 2017, but I somehow doubt it.

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NJWC, I am not from Russia, but I have lived/trained there many years ago. I also read their forums and watch the interviews, and sometimes I translate for the forum, as you've seen. My prediction is based on few things:

 

1. I think people don't realize how off Sad was in 2017, including Snyder. He was basically not training and actively gaining weight following marriage, which is a huge thing in that part of the world. He started actual training shortly before Russian nationals.

 

2. With top level Russian wrestlers, it is very hard to beat the same top dude few times in a row, also due to the coaches. JB found this out the hard way in Rio with Geduev. One of the reasons is that Russian coaches are very good at making adjustments, and Snyder's tactic is somewhat predictable.

 

3. Note in the 1st match, Snyder could not get to Sad's legs even once in open space or take him down there and he tried. Yet, Sad got to Snyder's legs. This will repeat itself. It will be very hard for Snyder to score from open space. Further, Snyder gets scored on in almost every match. Sad will score on him few times. He is faster

Those are my reasons, but I may be wrong of course, it could be Snyder has improved more than that Sad version in 2017, but I somehow doubt it.

Why do you doubt Snyder could improve as much, or more, than Sadulaev in the same time?

He’s demonstrated he’s the better wrestler, so what he has done to get to this point is equal or better than what Saduaoev has done. Snyder also did this while wrestling folk for OSU.

He can focus solely on free now, which should help with his training significantly.

Snyder all day long. He’s already proven it, and will do so again.

To dismiss an entire year as Sad being “off” is disrespectful to a guy (KS) who has multiple world titles. They wrestled, with plenty on the line, and KS won.

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Two different styles. Snyder has all the sophistication of a sledgehammer. Good quickness, powerful hips, and a tank that seems bottomless all contribute heavily to his success. Sadulaev seems more refined and technical than Snyder. If they wrestled five matches, I think it would be a 3 to 2 split. It most likely would favor Snyder.

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they stepped on the mat and snyder won no doubt... it was a great match... but...

 

to ignore the circumstances leading up to that match is silly...

 

to ignore the size difference is silly...

 

also, snyder has been training free exclusively for the last 3 years... he just showed up at some duals here and there and put on takedown clinics...

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The article was a good read, but much of it, and the responses on this forum are absurd.

 

(World team scores are too difficult to explain... margin of victory... huh?)

 

Snyder as Icarus? Huh? Saduleev was considered the best p4p and had the HUBRIS of going up a weight and lost.  Got a bit too big for his britches.  Too close to the sun.  His wings of wax melted.  

 

Snyder loses on occasion and gives up points regularly, but he's Icarus?  "the Russian Tank" hadn't lost in years.  In his hubris, the "boy band member" went up a weight and was broken.  That's your Icarus.

 

Should I even get into the  authors contempt for middle America, Christianity, etc.?  Sad is probably more devout than Snyder, but his religion is only mentioned once.  His "handsomeness" is mentioned more often... kind of odd.  

 

I enjoyed the read, but so many biases are palpable... 

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The article was a good read, but much of it, and the responses on this forum are absurd.

 

(World team scores are too difficult to explain... margin of victory... huh?)

 

Snyder as Icarus? Huh? Saduleev was considered the best p4p and had the HUBRIS of going up a weight and lost. Got a bit too big for his britches. Too close to the sun. His wings of wax melted.

 

Snyder loses on occasion and gives up points regularly, but he's Icarus? "the Russian Tank" hadn't lost in years. In his hubris, the "boy band member" went up a weight and was broken. That's your Icarus.

 

Should I even get into the authors contempt for middle America, Christianity, etc.? Sad is probably more devout than Snyder, but his religion is only mentioned once. His "handsomeness" is mentioned more often... kind of odd.

 

I enjoyed the read, but so many biases are palpable...

Part of why it was a good read was the outside perspective. I also looked at Sadulaev as the favorite at the time. However, it makes sense to view him as the underdog given how big of size disadvantage he faced. Moving up wasn’t necessarily hubris-by all accounts the cut to 86 was tough and he had just won the Olympics. Sad is very humble in how he presents himself. And you can’t deny Snyder’s hubris-the guy wore an Ironman singlet this past weekend and drips confidence in all of his interviews. He has backed it up though-but he is still human like the rest of us (and Icarus).

 

The author goes into detail about the Russians being religious in the wrestling hotbeds, much like the Americans. The point he makes is that both groups are outsiders from the main stream of their country and looked down on by the elites (Moscow in Russia, cities and east/west coast in the US). You may find it condescending, but I think most people are less sensitive and can appreciate the parallels between US/Russian wrestlers. It’s especially apt now given the political dynamic of the world.

Edited by Billyhoyle

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If you google their names and victory, it’s mainly Sad covering his face or looking at the flag or away from people. Snyder is flexing and looking into the stands.

 

Neither is wrong, but quite different.

 

The author compared Snyder to Icarus—you wouldn’t compare Sad to Icarus, as he never seemed to try to fly on wings of wax: create himself as an oversized larger than life Figure.

 

I’m not saying Snyder is seeking fame in a bad way, but his personality contrasted with Sad’s would show an Icarus like fall if he were to lose. Sad lost and it was compared to apostasy—a loss of faith. Snyder’s loss, if it had occurred, would have been a loss of ego.

 

I don’t mean ego negatively, but it would have been a loss of Snyder’s huge belief in himself. One that Snyder says is from God, but has signs of also being a more American cultural phenomena.

 

I linked a poem that is a based on a painting of Icarus, but the painting and the poem both marginalize Icarus’s fall. I think the article was also taking this perspective. Sad is the main figure of the story because he is the one that isn’t going to fall from great heights. Sad is the one who is going to fall from regular heights into despair. He is the tragic figure that more aligns with wrestling’s unconscious connection to the fallen as the article described. Snyder, if he had lost, is the Icarus—fallen after being up so high..

 

https://m.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/landscape-fall-icarus

Icarus tried to fly higher than he could and paid the price.  

 

Sadulaev literally tried to wrestle at a weight higher than he could and paid the price.  He is far more Icarus than Snyder is.  

 

If the argument is that Snyder has a big ego, then yes he does.  If the argument is Sadulaev doesn't, then read the rest of the thread about the guy who supposedly took a year off from training before deciding to take on an Olympic Champ 10 lbs bigger than him.  That is all ego (and not a bad kind that I want to knock him for).  He is a true champion who is the best in the world and knows it and thought he was unbeatable.  He wasn't.  That is far more Icarus than a guy who flexes after he wins.

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Part of why it was a good read was the outside perspective. I also looked at Sadulaev as the favorite at the time. However, it makes sense to view him as the underdog given how big of size disadvantage he faced. Moving up wasn’t necessarily hubris-by all accounts the cut to 86 was tough and he had just won the Olympics. Sad is very humble in how he presents himself. And you can’t deny Snyder’s hubris-the guy wore an Ironman singlet this past weekend and drips confidence in all of his interviews. He has backed it up though-but he is still human like the rest of us (and Icarus).

 

The author goes into detail about the Russians being religious in the wrestling hotbeds, much like the Americans. The point he makes is that both groups are outsiders from the main stream of their country and looked down on by the elites (Moscow in Russia, cities and east/west coast in the US). You may find it condescending, but I think most people are less sensitive and can appreciate the parallels between US/Russian wrestlers. It’s especially apt now given the political dynamic of the world.

People who don't think that world class athletes are uber-confident are sadly mistaken.  You don't get that far without belief in yourself.  So Snyder "rage-flexed" after winning the biggest match in decades (a comeback win) and clinching the world team title?  Does he always behave like this? I don't think so.  To compare that to Sad easily defeating a Cuban ... not the same thing. (also, what is the record of Cubans in world/Olympic finals in the 20th century?)

 

And the religion of Snyder, Burroughs,  and Maroulis is front and center of the article, whereas it is barely mentioned for Sad, if at all.  And this is despite the fact that Sad is extremely devout.  Is Islam mentioned, yes... but not with the frequency of Christianity or the disdain.

 

I'll repeat: The author has some issues with middle America, Christianity, etc.

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I like Snyder more than I like Sad. I am not showing any contempt for Snyder nor am I praising Sad.

 

Being literally smaller than Snyder does not make Sad Icarus. Icarus was not literally small and challenging a literally big thing. Snyder is literally trying to be a super hero like personality. Sad is spending a bunch of time with his wife eating food and then not wanting to cut weight. It isn’t hubris that compelled Sad to challenge Snyder, in my and the author’s opinion. It was hubris for Snyder to make the kind of comments and social media posts about being happy for Sad moving up: and it looks like this was a great attitude! It is still similar to Icarus in the author’s interpretation.

 

I am explaining the author’s perspective that some readers seem to assume is an insult. It isn’t. I say the word rage positively as a coach all the time. Rage = sprint or explode on shots etc.

 

AHamilton, if you think that Sad’s religion isn’t discussed, you are missing major points of the article. It literally says that people from his area consider ISIS-like religious extremist groups. That’s pretty religious!

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they stepped on the mat and snyder won no doubt... it was a great match... but...

 

to ignore the circumstances leading up to that match is silly...

 

to ignore the size difference is silly...

 

also, snyder has been training free exclusively for the last 3 years... he just showed up at some duals here and there and put on takedown clinics...

No, it’s silly to say a guy who just beat Sadulaev less than. Year ago will get shut out.

It’s sillly to dismiss results of an actual match at the world championships.

They showed up and weighed in at the same class, and wrestles. Snyder gave him the first TD.

 

Snyder has wrestled folk most of his life, including the time at tOSU. Sadulaev trained exclusively in free his whole life.

If you think Snyder wasn’t practicing folk as he prepared for

The postseason, you’re nuts.

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I like Snyder more than I like Sad. I am not showing any contempt for Snyder nor am I praising Sad.

 

Being literally smaller than Snyder does not make Sad Icarus. Icarus was not literally small and challenging a literally big thing. Snyder is literally trying to be a super hero like personality. Sad is spending a bunch of time with his wife eating food and then not wanting to cut weight. It isn’t hubris that compelled Sad to challenge Snyder, in my and the author’s opinion. It was hubris for Snyder to make the kind of comments and social media posts about being happy for Sad moving up: and it looks like this was a great attitude! It is still similar to Icarus in the author’s interpretation.

 

I am explaining the author’s perspective that some readers seem to assume is an insult. It isn’t. I say the word rage positively as a coach all the time. Rage = sprint or explode on shots etc.

 

AHamilton, if you think that Sad’s religion isn’t discussed, you are missing major points of the article. It literally says that people from his area consider ISIS-like religious extremist groups. That’s pretty religious!

"His people" not him personally.

 

def. Rage: "a violent and uncontrolled anger."

 

I guess you're using it wrong.

Edited by AHamilton

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i guess Snyder has been lying for 3 years... because he has been quoted as saying he practices free exclusively... and still has no par terre... this is not some secret and has been discussed many times on this BBS in the past... thanks for playing though...

 

personally, i favor snyder in almost every match up with sad based purely on size alone... i think sad is the better wrestler hands down as far technique...

 

perhaps with a couple of years of packing on size and getting used to the extra weight, sad would be favored in my mind... it takes time for your body to adjust to going up weight classes and it does not take a genius to realize that...

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Snyder better than Sadulaev....No.Sad is a bloated 86 who bumped up and lost a one point match to Snyder after only wrestling trials. At their correct weight Sadulaev is far more impressive, no question. I do not see Sadulaev almost getting teched by Salas like Snyder. Sadulaev is not so much better that he can beat him while outsized, but he is the better wrestler. He went a very long period without even giving up a point. I remember Iranian fans were happy that Karimi even got two pushouts on him.

 

I wonder how the reaction would be if Jordan Burroughs went up to 86 (without putting on the size) and lost 6-5 to Sadulaev back when he was at the weight or Yazdani now. Would everyone here be claiming they are better that JB? I doubt it. In fact it would definitely be the opposite.

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I like Snyder more than I like Sad. I am not showing any contempt for Snyder nor am I praising Sad.

 

Being literally smaller than Snyder does not make Sad Icarus. Icarus was not literally small and challenging a literally big thing. Snyder is literally trying to be a super hero like personality. Sad is spending a bunch of time with his wife eating food and then not wanting to cut weight. It isn’t hubris that compelled Sad to challenge Snyder, in my and the author’s opinion. It was hubris for Snyder to make the kind of comments and social media posts about being happy for Sad moving up: and it looks like this was a great attitude! It is still similar to Icarus in the author’s interpretation.

 

I am explaining the author’s perspective that some readers seem to assume is an insult. It isn’t. I say the word rage positively as a coach all the time. Rage = sprint or explode on shots etc.

 

AHamilton, if you think that Sad’s religion isn’t discussed, you are missing major points of the article. It literally says that people from his area consider ISIS-like religious extremist groups. That’s pretty religious!

Hubris is absolutely not saying you are happy a guy moved up and then winning the resulting match.  You are not even close to the definition of Hubris.  

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Snyder better than Sadulaev....No.Sad is a bloated 86 who bumped up and lost a one point match to Snyder after only wrestling trials. At their correct weight Sadulaev is far more impressive, no question. I do not see Sadulaev almost getting teched by Salas like Snyder. Sadulaev is not so much better that he can beat him while outsized, but he is the better wrestler. He went a very long period without even giving up a point. I remember Iranian fans were happy that Karimi even got two pushouts on him.

 

I wonder how the reaction would be if Jordan Burroughs went up to 86 (without putting on the size) and lost 6-5 to Sadulaev back when he was at the weight or Yazdani now. Would everyone here be claiming they are better that JB? I doubt it. In fact it would definitely be the opposite.

The analogy only works if Burroughs was too big for 74 and then went up to 86 and lost and then went down to 79, never returning to 74.  

 

Sadulaev was clearly undersized in that match.  He is a better 86 KG wrestler than Snyder is a 97 KG wrestler, no doubt.  But Sadulaev is probably never an 86 KG wrestler again.  So if you want to put 2016 86 KG Sadulaev at the top of the 2018 heap go right ahead.  

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Who says Sadulaev is too big for 86? His own national team coaches want him to go back down. It's him and his personal coach who want to wrestle 92 or 97. We all saw him at 86, he was average sized. He was no bigger than Yasar, Karimi, Kudyamagmedov, Sharifov, etc.

 

Maybe its a tough cut but no way is it a case of he can't make it. Yazdani at 74 was a case of not being able to make it anymore. I feel Sadulaev probably over estimated his own abilities and thought he could keep winning without cutting weight. He loses to Snyder and then 92kg comes in, which is a weight full of guys who will be back at 86 for Tokyo. Did they all suddenly outgrow 86? No. So he stays at 92 and doesn't have to cut down to 86 and he also avoids having to face the bigger 97kg guys. If he keeps losing to Snyder I believe he will go back to 86 for 2020. It is no different from Burroughs trying 86. If Burroughs were to wrestle Sadulaev or Yazdani at 86 and lose by only 1 I would consider it as proof of Burroughs being better if anything.

Edited by Shiraz123

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I'll repeat: The author has some issues with middle America, Christianity, etc.

 

​As stated earlier in the thread, it was written for a politics section of an intellectual magazine. I agree that the biases were palpable, but I don't think that diminished the quality of the piece - if anything it made for a more contextualized read. It also made it less likely that it would be embraced by people reading for sports content, which it wasn't written for. He states pretty clearly that he was raised in a more privileged place than the post-industrial Middle American hotbed of American Wrestling, and other implications suggest that he's deeply conflicted by the embrace that those familiar places have shown of a new, unusually confident political leader. Do you think that his biases make his observations less valuable, or are they just irritating? 

 

As for hubris, I think the closest action we saw to that was Snyder's Instagram post standing arms outstretched over a stunned Sadulaev, lying on his back defeated, with the caption "undisputed" - a specific reference in the article. I don't think that this qualifies as hubris, but it's the closest thing to rubbing Sadulaev's nose in it, which would fit one definition: excessive pride of the perpetrator and at the cost of the victim. The difference that I see is that I don't think Snyder's pride is challenging the gods or is greater than life, but rather he's solely challenging his opponent while giving glory to God. For context, his Instagram post was one of a series that he made in the days after his huge victory, which I don't think is unexpected or outside of cultural norms (at least American norms).

 

I love being a fan of Snyder, but I was with the majority of fans, as I remember it,  NOT picking him to beat Sadulaev that month. I totally enjoyed his celebration in the days after. Looking back on those posts, and thinking about some of Snyder's other posts (particularly ahead of the PSU dual),  I see a young man who is clearly committed to his craft growing into his role as his country's leader in it. He says things that are expected from 21yr old guys, guys who are probably going to be humiliated a few times before they become more articulate. I guess that's the purpose of Nemesis, and of the Icarus parable. What I hate about the author's Icarus assertion is the implication that Snyder is due for an epic fall, one which he would not recover from. As other posters have noted, Snyder takes an occasional loss. He also goes through growing pains where he doesn't pin Nevils, and his team loses after he makes young-man comments ensuring the opposite. 

 

jcjcjc, I appreciate the poem you linked to, where Icarus fell and nobody really cared or noticed. I think it's a stretch to say that's the kind of reference that the writer was making, though. A lengthy piece like this could have afforded a few phrases to make that distinction if it were the intention. I think it was common hyperbole in the context of all the cultural associations and the political issues vaguely referenced - where people observing the exact same scene are often interpreting drastically different meanings. 

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​As stated earlier in the thread, it was written for a politics section of an intellectual magazine. I agree that the biases were palpable, but I don't think that diminished the quality of the piece - if anything it made for a more contextualized read. It also made it less likely that it would be embraced by people reading for sports content, which it wasn't written for. He states pretty clearly that he was raised in a more privileged place than the post-industrial Middle American hotbed of American Wrestling, and other implications suggest that he's deeply conflicted by the embrace that those familiar places have shown of a new, unusually confident political leader. Do you think that his biases make his observations less valuable, or are they just irritating? 

 

As for hubris, I think the closest action we saw to that was Snyder's Instagram post standing arms outstretched over a stunned Sadulaev, lying on his back defeated, with the caption "undisputed" - a specific reference in the article. I don't think that this qualifies as hubris, but it's the closest thing to rubbing Sadulaev's nose in it, which would fit one definition: excessive pride of the perpetrator and at the cost of the victim. The difference that I see is that I don't think Snyder's pride is challenging the gods or is greater than life, but rather he's solely challenging his opponent while giving glory to God. For context, his Instagram post was one of a series that he made in the days after his huge victory, which I don't think is unexpected or outside of cultural norms (at least American norms).

 

I love being a fan of Snyder, but I was with the majority of fans, as I remember it,  NOT picking him to beat Sadulaev that month. I totally enjoyed his celebration in the days after. Looking back on those posts, and thinking about some of Snyder's other posts (particularly ahead of the PSU dual),  I see a young man who is clearly committed to his craft growing into his role as his country's leader in it. He says things that are expected from 21yr old guys, guys who are probably going to be humiliated a few times before they become more articulate. I guess that's the purpose of Nemesis, and of the Icarus parable. What I hate about the author's Icarus assertion is the implication that Snyder is due for an epic fall, one which he would not recover from. As other posters have noted, Snyder takes an occasional loss. He also goes through growing pains where he doesn't pin Nevils, and his team loses after he makes young-man comments ensuring the opposite. 

 

jcjcjc, I appreciate the poem you linked to, where Icarus fell and nobody really cared or noticed. I think it's a stretch to say that's the kind of reference that the writer was making, though. A lengthy piece like this could have afforded a few phrases to make that distinction if it were the intention. I think it was common hyperbole in the context of all the cultural associations and the political issues vaguely referenced - where people observing the exact same scene are often interpreting drastically different meanings. 

 

As mentioned, I enjoyed the piece, but I found the biases of the author to be an irritant.  Does he feel guilty do to his privileged upbringing?  But he did his job, and I read it until the end.  I even considered recommending it to some people in my Social Studies department.  I also enjoy your analysis, denger.

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As mentioned, I enjoyed the piece, but I found the biases of the author to be an irritant.  Does he feel guilty do to his privileged upbringing?  But he did his job, and I read it until the end.  I even considered recommending it to some people in my Social Studies department.  I also enjoy your analysis, denger.

 

I probably share his biases...which makes me less irritated! I also think that in addition to his internal conflicts, and despite being published in an intellectual magazine, he's lobbing this piece at us (wrestling fans) as a critical provocateur. 

I'd be curious to hear the perspective of people who aren't familiar at all with wrestling.  

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- Sadulaev can make 86kg no problem. There is no real explanation that I've read anywhere which justifies his move to 97kg. This is a huge weight jump. 

 

- My speculation is that Sad got married after Olympics and that year he wanted to compete in something but not lose weight, so he went to 97kg. If there was 92kg he'd have gone there probably.

 

- NJWC, I think its fine to analyze the match to see what can happen next match. There are indicators. What is the issue? IMO, it will be very tough for Snyder to score a point. Snyder is great, but Sad is a prodigy.

Edited by wfan24

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I probably share his biases...which makes me less irritated! I also think that in addition to his internal conflicts, and despite being published in an intellectual magazine, he's lobbing this piece at us (wrestling fans) as a critical provocateur. 

I'd be curious to hear the perspective of people who aren't familiar at all with wrestling.  

 

I do not share his biases, but at the same time, I would not want to read an article written from an opposite perspective (if that makes sense).  It is probably why I watch little news.  I am VERY interested in current events, but don't like there to be any spin.

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- Sadulaev can make 86kg no problem. There is no real explanation that I've read anywhere which justifies his move to 97kg. This is a huge weight jump.

 

- My speculation is that Sad got married after Olympics and that year he wanted to compete in something but not lose weight, so he went to 97kg. If there was 92kg he'd have gone there probably.

 

- NJWC, I think its fine to analyze the match to see what can happen next match. There are indicators. What is the issue? IMO, it will be very tough for Snyder to score a point. Snyder is great, but Sad is a prodigy.

Absurdly biased. I’ll tell you what, how about a bet.

If hey meet at worlds this year, and Sad shuts out Snyder, I’ll disappear from the boards. If Snyder scores, will you admit to your lack of objectivity?

Snyder is 21 and a 4 time world/Olympic champ. He beat your guy head to head.

Who is the prodigy?

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Absurdly biased. I’ll tell you what, how about a bet.

If hey meet at worlds this year, and Sad shuts out Snyder, I’ll disappear from the boards. If Snyder scores, will you admit to your lack of objectivity?

Snyder is 21 and a 4 time world/Olympic champ. He beat your guy head to head.

Who is the prodigy?

Why not both?

Edited by Billyhoyle

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