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Article about Snyder-Sadulaev match

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NJWC, 

 

I think you are overreacting. In almost all sports, individual or team, when 2 parties meet and the score is so super close, and especially given the circumstances, 20 lbs difference on game day, etc, it is completely viable to want to see a rematch.  Say in soccer, given the world cup now, top teams can meet at least 2 times, usually more during the year, and then you can see who is really better. One match is usually not enough. If next match Sad wins 6:5, its still not clear who is better. If one of them beats the other 5:1 matches its pretty clear who is better.

 

Also, its good to analyze matches and the moves that happened and how, especially if they are this close. When JB beat Geduev by 1 point in U.S. 2015, I wrote that he will not beat him again and people discarded it as bias. Well, at the Olympics next year, JB was more than ready but was completely neutralized by Geduev, couldn't do anything. 

 

With Sad vs. Snyder in match 2, it will not be that dissimilar. But that will be fun as it will motivate that much more rubber match no.3 :)

 

And also, to be clear, Sad is not my favorite wrestler, neither is Snyder. I find their styles a bit too reliant on heavy power and athleticism. I actually like Taylor's style , its a lot more interesting, he is IMO the best pure wrestler on team USA and I would prefer he wins say if he meets Naifonov, who is also not too interesting and is a grinder.

Edited by wfan24

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You mean there is a bias among an author. Shocker. I have a bias against pious Republican JEEZUS types like you (read the Bible; savage AF). I think you are a hypocrite at best, and your morals are from a book that describes dead babies and bestiality porn. I will pass on such morals. Yet I give Snyder a pass because he is my favorite active wrestler and I don't care about his faith. So give your support of a Republican Jesus version of religion and persecution complex a rest. Well unless you want to defend your political oriented savage faith to me. I am game, most take a pass.

pot meet kettle

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NJWC,

 

I think you are overreacting. In almost all sports, individual or team, when 2 parties meet and the score is so super close, and especially given the circumstances, 20 lbs difference on game day, etc, it is completely viable to want to see a rematch. Say in soccer, given the world cup now, top teams can meet at least 2 times, usually more during the year, and then you can see who is really better. One match is usually not enough. If next match Sad wins 6:5, its still not clear who is better. If one of them beats the other 5:1 matches its pretty clear who is better.

 

Also, its good to analyze matches and the moves that happened and how, especially if they are this close. When JB beat Geduev by 1 point in U.S. 2015, I wrote that he will not beat him again and people discarded it as bias. Well, at the Olympics next year, JB was more than ready but was completely neutralized by Geduev, couldn't do anything.

 

With Sad vs. Snyder in match 2, it will not be that dissimilar. But that will be fun as it will motivate that much more rubber match no.3 :)

 

And also, to be clear, Sad is not my favorite wrestler, neither is Snyder. I find their styles a bit too reliant on heavy power and athleticism. I actually like Taylor's style , its a lot more interesting, he is IMO the best pure wrestler on team USA and I would prefer he wins say if he meets Naifonov, who is also not too interesting and is a grinder.

You’re created an argument that doesn’t exist, at least for me, then argue against it.

I never said the weight doesn’t matter. I never said that Sadulaev can’t win a rematch.

What I said is it’s absurd to suggest future dominance for the guy who lost, and that this position is based on a personal bias.

 

I stand by that position.

Edited by NJWC

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Haven't read all the comments, but what is striking to me about the article is how off base the author's "Icarus" comments are. 

 

The author's perception seemed limited to what he saw before him in Paris:  The diminutive Sadulaev challenging the massive Snyder, trying to somehow topple this mammoth being like David against Goliath.  I suppose that's understandable, as Snyder was indeed bigger, and the author admits he had only recently started following international wrestling.

 

But that wasn't the reality.  Going into that match, the wrestling community viewed Sadulaev as a god, whereas Snyder was world-class but beatable.  I'd venture that well over 75% of the international wrestling community would've ranked Sadulaev the best pound-for-pound wrester in the world. Maybe over 90%.  He hadn't lost in forever, and scarcely anyone had been able to score on him. Snyder, by contrast, had taken his share of losses over the prior couple years, but had been able to win when it counts at Worlds/Olympics in 2015 and 16.  Very few people would've considered him the best pound for pound wrestler in the world.  Even on these USAW boards, it would definitely have been a minority view.  So when Sadulaev went up a weight, nearly everyone figured Snyder to be the underdog.  The question wasn't really whether Sadulaev was the better wrestler, but whether he'd be a full-sized 97kg or if there'd still be enough of a size difference to give Snyder a shot.  (Turns out there was, and a conditioning difference to boot.) 

 

The author also seizes on Snyder's social media posts, apparently inferring that he's destined for a downfall.  But there's really nothing boastful in Snyder's posts or interview comments; just confidence.  And I highly doubt Snyder's confidence was any higher than Sadulaev's, who was clearly shocked to have lost, along with the entire Russian delegation.  The author didn't seem to get that Snyder's pleasure at seeing Sadulaev move up was more about Snyder's love of competing against the best, win or lose; indeed, that's clearly why Snyder competes so frequently.  Snyder never presented himself as unbeatable -- nor could he, as he'd taken various losses (World Cup, Yarygin) in the preceding couple years.  Most of us in the wrestling community viewed him as beatable as well.  (And even post-Sadulaev, I don't think anyone views Snyder as an unbeatable god; a favorite for sure, but against top competition, his matches remain close.)

 

If anyone deserved a comparison to Icarus, it'd be Sadulaev, as it was immensely bold of him to think he could bump up a weight -- without physically filing out, and without being in peak cardiovascular condition -- and knock off Snyder, likely viewing Snyder as insufficiently technical to compete with him despite Snyder's size and strength advantage.  As it turns out, it was Sadulaev who flew too close to the sun. 

Edited by BAC

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I made the statement that it was an unbalanced article, almost trying to paint Snyder as the bad guy.  

 

I'm not sure about that, but the author does state that he was pulling for Sadulaev. It's also clear that he wasn't impressed by the way Snyder handled himself - from the time that they were about to exit the tunnel through the subsequent social media posts. 

I think the cultural associations were meant to paint the wrestling community as relative equals: devout, working class, and kinda low-brow. Also, it was written for an American audience, which is presumably more familiar the with the "conservative" Christians that were described in more detail than their (mostly Asian) counterparts. I think it was a description and critique of us as a whole, not just American, and the subject of all that content became Kyle Snyder. 

AHamilton, you're the World Religions guy, so I'm not trying to dismiss what you're reading into. It could be that the content specific to your expertise fell short, and that the rest of us just aren't looking for it - we can't know to be looking for it. 

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I really don’t get the issue with the way Snyder presented himself in the whole scenario. From the tweet he posted when Sad announced he was moving up, to the pre-match, to the post match.

 

The tweet: I don’t get the issue. Snyder has ALWAYS said he wants to seek out the toughest competition possible. His tweet was not at all talking **** or being cocky. It was expressing joy in being able to compete against what many believed to be the best P4P wrestler in the world. What’s wrong with his tweet.

 

Pre-match: Am I missing something?

 

Post match: again, it’s not like he stood over Sad and got in his face and talked ****. He walked toward his corner and showed excitement in winning what many dubbed to be the match of the century, and in doing so clinched the team title over the Russians. It’s not like he had a planned touchdown celebration where the rest of the US team lined up and he rolled them down like bowling pins.

 

So again I ask....what am I missing?

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NJWC,

 

I made my prediction: Snyder will not win the 2nd match and I don't think it will be that close. I think people will be surprised how that match will go. You said this is not reasonable because Snyder won match 1.  We will find out :)

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NJWC,

 

I made my prediction: Snyder will not win the 2nd match and I don't think it will be that close. I think people will be surprised how that match will go. You said this is not reasonable because Snyder won match 1. We will find out :)

I take it English isn’t your first language, because you continue to struggle with what I’ve actually said.

Good luck to your hero in his quest to get to .500 vs Snyder.

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I was waiting that one of you answers, but I want to answer this question. OF COURSE if the weigh in done day before the wrestler will quickly put back all his weight and even more. Rehydrate himself, get plenty of food. He has more than 12 hrs to recuperate. I like that they returned every day weigh ins( like old days). It will not probably stop wrestlers from cutting weight, but they will not have enough time to gain 20 lbs. And the size difference will not be significant. It will be more fair. And we hopefully see fair match between Snyder and Sadullaev.

I am guessing you don't realize that Snyder is wrestling at or close to his weigh in, right? No, you obviously do not. Snyder is not cutting other then a a skipped meal and a good work out to make weight. He could have a weigh in on the mat and be fine. Sudalaev either needs to commit to bulking up, or go back down. The fact he is not interested to get back up to wrestle Snyder suggests he will go down for Yaz. Edited by sgallan

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"The fact he is not interested to get back up to wrestle Snyder suggests he will go down for Yaz. "

 

wrong again.

 

NJWC, Sad is not my fav. wrestler, but Snyder nearly got teched at BTS by Salas of all people, at home. Sad is the better wrestler and if he trains normally, Snyder ain't beating him 2nd time, not next year and not the year after.

 

btw, Snyder keeps saying he likes a challenge, I'd love to see him step up a bit (like Sad did with him or like Gatsalov did once to win HW) and wrestle Akgul, Petrishvilli, Makhov, and others, just one time. Curious how his technique holds up with those dudes.

Edited by wfan24

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btw, Snyder keeps saying he likes a challenge, I'd love to see him step up a bit (like Sad did with him or like Gatsalov did once to win HW) and wrestle Akgul, Petrishvilli, Makhov, and others, just one time. Curious how his technique holds up with those dudes.

 

Snyder trained with Akgul at the Ohio RTC for a bit earlier this year when he was visiting the USA. He posted some of their live matches on youtube and Akgul was consistently beating him from what I remember. As great as Snyder is, there's just no way to make up for that much of a size deficit.

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"The fact he is not interested to get back up to wrestle Snyder suggests he will go down for Yaz. "

 

wrong again.

 

NJWC, Sad is not my fav. wrestler, but Snyder nearly got teched at BTS by Salas of all people, at home. Sad is the better wrestler and if he trains normally, Snyder ain't beating him 2nd time, not next year and not the year after.

 

btw, Snyder keeps saying he likes a challenge, I'd love to see him step up a bit (like Sad did with him or like Gatsalov did once to win HW) and wrestle Akgul, Petrishvilli, Makhov, and others, just one time. Curious how his technique holds up with those dudes.

You use an exhibition match Snyder won as proof of why he will never beat sadukaev, yet ignore a world final win over sadulaev. Smart.

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I really don’t get the issue with the way Snyder presented himself in the whole scenario. From the tweet he posted when Sad announced he was moving up, to the pre-match, to the post match.

 

The tweet: I don’t get the issue. Snyder has ALWAYS said he wants to seek out the toughest competition possible. His tweet was not at all talking **** or being cocky. It was expressing joy in being able to compete against what many believed to be the best P4P wrestler in the world. What’s wrong with his tweet.

 

Pre-match: Am I missing something?

 

Post match: again, it’s not like he stood over Sad and got in his face and talked ****. He walked toward his corner and showed excitement in winning what many dubbed to be the match of the century, and in doing so clinched the team title over the Russians. It’s not like he had a planned touchdown celebration where the rest of the US team lined up and he rolled them down like bowling pins.

 

So again I ask....what am I missing?

 

Personally, I don't have any problem with Snyder either.

I think the author started to take Sadulaev's side when they were about to enter the arena. That's when he started to paint Snyder as a wild animal and Sadulaev as more contemplative. I think the author's description is exaggerated. The video below is kinda bad, but it does show these moments, and it's not particularly remarkable. I think we all remember that Snyder gave up the first takedown because he was too wound up - jumping around instead of wrestling. Given the author's audience, I think he was taking some liberties here to hype it up verbally since they probably weren't going to watch a bad video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASeWTDBJRg4

 

The author also took issue with Snyder's celebration after winning - a pure expression of his excitement while standing over a defeated Sadulaev. The image depicting this was posted to Snyder's Instagram with the caption "undisputed". Again, I don't take issue with it, but I see why someone might. 

 

 

I don't think that you're missing anything in reality,  you just interpreted it all in real time as a fan of Snyder (probably the same as I did). If you feel like you're missing something, it might be what I've concluded is the author's use of allegory. I think he's presenting the whole thing as a description and passive critique of the American working-class while comparing that class to its international counterparts. If an audience of wrestling fans is considered at all, he must know that this implied content will irritate us, and I think this is his secondary intention.

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I hear what you’re saying Denger, however I wasn’t talking about the author so much but comments I’ve read here now and previously elsewhere about the same.

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Ah. Yeah, my only criticism is that he acts his age. So he's human after all.

I can't really imagine having his courage and talent, but if I did, I doubt that I could handle myself any better than he does. 

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I think he's presenting the whole thing as a description and passive critique of the American working-class while comparing that class to its international counterparts. If an audience of wrestling fans is considered at all, he must know that this implied content will irritate us, and I think this is his secondary intention.

 

I didn't read it as critique of the American working class, but as a critique of American foreign policy more broadly. He became more sympathetic to Sadulaev when he started to analogize between the brute strength and bravado of Snyder and the strength and bravado of America as a world actor, particularly under the present administration (his anxiety about which had led him to return to wrestling as a fan in the first place). I think the author has a genuine sympathy for the american working class, but recognizes that even working class Americans still enjoy a substantially privileged place in the world compared with the Mongolians, Georgians, Dagestanis, and others who make up the heart of the international wrestling community.

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This is hilarious here: 

 

At 1:36 Tedeev slaps Sadulaev hard who looks annoyed and steps back.

 

NJWC, well, to be honest with top wrestlers like Snyder and Sad, they do want to win any match, including beat the streets. I don't think they wrestle any less hard there than at the worlds or trials. They are just competitors. To give up 8 points in a match, that is a lot. At any rate, this time around I think its the real match: Sad had time to adapt to weight class, so weight can't be an excuse, he is not getting married a 2nd time :), both sides know what to expect.

 

IMO, like with all top competitions, 1st match can go in any way, as it can be due to surprise, tactics, etc. This also happens in many games: they play few games (best of 3, best of 5 ,best of 7, etc) to see how it turns out. IMO, it will be clear who is better after they have 4-5 matches. If Sad beats Snyder and I think he will, I don't think he can say he is better still. They need to wrestle 4-5 times to see that.

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