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Article about Snyder-Sadulaev match


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#21 jcjcjc

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 02:52 AM

If you google their names and victory, it’s mainly Sad covering his face or looking at the flag or away from people. Snyder is flexing and looking into the stands.

Neither is wrong, but quite different.

The author compared Snyder to Icarus—you wouldn’t compare Sad to Icarus, as he never seemed to try to fly on wings of wax: create himself as an oversized larger than life Figure.

I’m not saying Snyder is seeking fame in a bad way, but his personality contrasted with Sad’s would show an Icarus like fall if he were to lose. Sad lost and it was compared to apostasy—a loss of faith. Snyder’s loss, if it had occurred, would have been a loss of ego.

I don’t mean ego negatively, but it would have been a loss of Snyder’s huge belief in himself. One that Snyder says is from God, but has signs of also being a more American cultural phenomena.

I linked a poem that is a based on a painting of Icarus, but the painting and the poem both marginalize Icarus’s fall. I think the article was also taking this perspective. Sad is the main figure of the story because he is the one that isn’t going to fall from great heights. Sad is the one who is going to fall from regular heights into despair. He is the tragic figure that more aligns with wrestling’s unconscious connection to the fallen as the article described. Snyder, if he had lost, is the Icarus—fallen after being up so high..

https://m.poets.org/...ape-fall-icarus
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#22 NJWC

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 05:20 AM

This sport, perhaps more than any other, seems to focus more on the loss than the win.
It seems to really define the mindset that it’s only winning, or pain. 100% success, or complete failure.
The brutality associated with wrestling is in the mentality, not the physicality.

#23 spladle

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 05:38 AM

I hope there will be a rematch someday.

#24 wfan24

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 08:50 AM

From what I've read about Sad and his interviews, I think he is more bothered by the questions not the loss itself.  I think Sad was unhappy with the loss but I don't think he is currently devastated or anything similar like sgallan and some others say. 

 

What I've read about Sad, the way he sees the loss is:  2017 was basically a off year for him, he moved up and lost a very close match in a weight class 11kg above. And this was not his only hard match, he almost loss to Baytsev 2 months earlier. Sad seems very confident that with the proper transition + his standard training, he'd beat Snyder.  I don't think Sad thinks Snyder is at his level when he is ready. This is why he refers to it as 'catastrophe', that he is losing to someone he should not, not that he is devastated. 

 

Of course, the expectations for Sad are much higher than for Snyder: Snyder loses occasionally here and there, and he gets scored on consistently. Snyder is not seen as invincible, but a great wrestler with great attitude who improves and competes a lot, and he is praised for that, rightfully so. But he does not have the 'unbeatable' aura around him. Sad is a different game.  Even when he loses a point it is seen as surprising and unexpected. People expect him to not lose.

 

Their 2nd match will be interesting. However, I believe Sad will beat Snyder and it will not be that close, around 6:1. I think people will be surprised how non-representative the first match was. Sad, when ready, is a different game. It will be very very hard for Snyder to score a point on him. Now of course if Snyder wins against a game Sad, it will really start establishing him as one of the goats. Its amazing really we have this rivalry, its been a while in wrestling.

 

I only hope Sad does not get more involved in politics, he recently was expressing opinions on various topics and some people don't like him for that. Main danger for Sad is not Snyder, its if he gets involved with side things again.


Edited by wfan24, 10 June 2018 - 09:05 AM.

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#25 NJWC

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 10:09 AM

From what I've read about Sad and his interviews, I think he is more bothered by the questions not the loss itself. I think Sad was unhappy with the loss but I don't think he is currently devastated or anything similar like sgallan and some others say.

What I've read about Sad, the way he sees the loss is: 2017 was basically a off year for him, he moved up and lost a very close match in a weight class 11kg above. And this was not his only hard match, he almost loss to Baytsev 2 months earlier. Sad seems very confident that with the proper transition + his standard training, he'd beat Snyder. I don't think Sad thinks Snyder is at his level when he is ready. This is why he refers to it as 'catastrophe', that he is losing to someone he should not, not that he is devastated.

Of course, the expectations for Sad are much higher than for Snyder: Snyder loses occasionally here and there, and he gets scored on consistently. Snyder is not seen as invincible, but a great wrestler with great attitude who improves and competes a lot, and he is praised for that, rightfully so. But he does not have the 'unbeatable' aura around him. Sad is a different game. Even when he loses a point it is seen as surprising and unexpected. People expect him to not lose.

Their 2nd match will be interesting. However, I believe Sad will beat Snyder and it will not be that close, around 6:1. I think people will be surprised how non-representative the first match was. Sad, when ready, is a different game. It will be very very hard for Snyder to score a point on him. Now of course if Snyder wins against a game Sad, it will really start establishing him as one of the goats. Its amazing really we have this rivalry, its been a while in wrestling.

I only hope Sad does not get more involved in politics, he recently was expressing opinions on various topics and some people don't like him for that. Main danger for Sad is not Snyder, its if he gets involved with side things again.


I’m curious where you’re from.

Snyder gave up a quick, sloppy TD due to being way to overhyped initially.
After that it was all Snyder.
Snyder wins the next one, comfortably, and the initial match supports my position far more than it does your position.
To suggest Snyder mya not score, wow. Your bias is incredible.

#26 wfan24

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 11:08 AM

NJWC, I am not from Russia, but I have lived/trained there many years ago. I also read their forums and watch the interviews, and sometimes I translate for the forum, as you've seen. My prediction is based on few things:

 

1. I think people don't realize how off Sad was in 2017, including Snyder. He was basically not training and actively gaining weight following marriage, which is a huge thing in that part of the world. He started  actual training shortly before Russian nationals. 

 

2. With top level Russian wrestlers, it is very hard to beat the same top dude few times in a row, also due to the coaches. JB found this out the hard way in Rio with Geduev. One of the reasons is that Russian coaches are very good at making adjustments, and Snyder's tactic is  somewhat predictable.  

 

3. Note in the 1st match, Snyder could not get to Sad's legs even once in open space or take him down there and he tried. Yet, Sad got to Snyder's legs. This will repeat itself.  It will be very hard for Snyder to score from open space. Further, Snyder gets scored on in almost every match. Sad will score on him few times. He is faster than Snyder.

 

Those are my reasons, but I may be wrong of course, it could be Snyder has improved more than that Sad version in 2017, but I somehow doubt it.


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#27 NJWC

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 01:14 PM

NJWC, I am not from Russia, but I have lived/trained there many years ago. I also read their forums and watch the interviews, and sometimes I translate for the forum, as you've seen. My prediction is based on few things:

1. I think people don't realize how off Sad was in 2017, including Snyder. He was basically not training and actively gaining weight following marriage, which is a huge thing in that part of the world. He started actual training shortly before Russian nationals.

2. With top level Russian wrestlers, it is very hard to beat the same top dude few times in a row, also due to the coaches. JB found this out the hard way in Rio with Geduev. One of the reasons is that Russian coaches are very good at making adjustments, and Snyder's tactic is somewhat predictable.

3. Note in the 1st match, Snyder could not get to Sad's legs even once in open space or take him down there and he tried. Yet, Sad got to Snyder's legs. This will repeat itself. It will be very hard for Snyder to score from open space. Further, Snyder gets scored on in almost every match. Sad will score on him few times. He is faster
Those are my reasons, but I may be wrong of course, it could be Snyder has improved more than that Sad version in 2017, but I somehow doubt it.


Why do you doubt Snyder could improve as much, or more, than Sadulaev in the same time?
He’s demonstrated he’s the better wrestler, so what he has done to get to this point is equal or better than what Saduaoev has done. Snyder also did this while wrestling folk for OSU.
He can focus solely on free now, which should help with his training significantly.
Snyder all day long. He’s already proven it, and will do so again.
To dismiss an entire year as Sad being “off” is disrespectful to a guy (KS) who has multiple world titles. They wrestled, with plenty on the line, and KS won.

#28 spladle

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 01:57 PM

Two different styles. Snyder has all the sophistication of a sledgehammer. Good quickness, powerful hips, and a tank that seems bottomless all contribute heavily to his success. Sadulaev seems more refined and technical than Snyder. If they wrestled five matches, I think it would be a 3 to 2 split. It most likely would favor Snyder.

#29 LJB

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 02:01 PM

they stepped on the mat and snyder won no doubt... it was a great match... but...

 

to ignore the circumstances leading up to that match is silly...

 

to ignore the size difference is silly...

 

also, snyder has been training free exclusively for the last 3 years... he just showed up at some duals here and there and put on takedown clinics...



#30 AHamilton

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 02:15 PM

The article was a good read, but much of it, and the responses on this forum are absurd.

 

(World team scores are too difficult to explain... margin of victory... huh?)

 

Snyder as Icarus? Huh? Saduleev was considered the best p4p and had the HUBRIS of going up a weight and lost.  Got a bit too big for his britches.  Too close to the sun.  His wings of wax melted.  

 

Snyder loses on occasion and gives up points regularly, but he's Icarus?  "the Russian Tank" hadn't lost in years.  In his hubris, the "boy band member" went up a weight and was broken.  That's your Icarus.

 

Should I even get into the  authors contempt for middle America, Christianity, etc.?  Sad is probably more devout than Snyder, but his religion is only mentioned once.  His "handsomeness" is mentioned more often... kind of odd.  

 

I enjoyed the read, but so many biases are palpable... 


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#31 Billyhoyle

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 02:45 PM

The article was a good read, but much of it, and the responses on this forum are absurd.

(World team scores are too difficult to explain... margin of victory... huh?)

Snyder as Icarus? Huh? Saduleev was considered the best p4p and had the HUBRIS of going up a weight and lost. Got a bit too big for his britches. Too close to the sun. His wings of wax melted.

Snyder loses on occasion and gives up points regularly, but he's Icarus? "the Russian Tank" hadn't lost in years. In his hubris, the "boy band member" went up a weight and was broken. That's your Icarus.

Should I even get into the authors contempt for middle America, Christianity, etc.? Sad is probably more devout than Snyder, but his religion is only mentioned once. His "handsomeness" is mentioned more often... kind of odd.

I enjoyed the read, but so many biases are palpable...

Part of why it was a good read was the outside perspective. I also looked at Sadulaev as the favorite at the time. However, it makes sense to view him as the underdog given how big of size disadvantage he faced. Moving up wasn’t necessarily hubris-by all accounts the cut to 86 was tough and he had just won the Olympics. Sad is very humble in how he presents himself. And you can’t deny Snyder’s hubris-the guy wore an Ironman singlet this past weekend and drips confidence in all of his interviews. He has backed it up though-but he is still human like the rest of us (and Icarus).

The author goes into detail about the Russians being religious in the wrestling hotbeds, much like the Americans. The point he makes is that both groups are outsiders from the main stream of their country and looked down on by the elites (Moscow in Russia, cities and east/west coast in the US). You may find it condescending, but I think most people are less sensitive and can appreciate the parallels between US/Russian wrestlers. It’s especially apt now given the political dynamic of the world.

Edited by Billyhoyle, 10 June 2018 - 02:47 PM.

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#32 boconnell

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 05:07 PM

If you google their names and victory, it’s mainly Sad covering his face or looking at the flag or away from people. Snyder is flexing and looking into the stands.

Neither is wrong, but quite different.

The author compared Snyder to Icarus—you wouldn’t compare Sad to Icarus, as he never seemed to try to fly on wings of wax: create himself as an oversized larger than life Figure.

I’m not saying Snyder is seeking fame in a bad way, but his personality contrasted with Sad’s would show an Icarus like fall if he were to lose. Sad lost and it was compared to apostasy—a loss of faith. Snyder’s loss, if it had occurred, would have been a loss of ego.

I don’t mean ego negatively, but it would have been a loss of Snyder’s huge belief in himself. One that Snyder says is from God, but has signs of also being a more American cultural phenomena.

I linked a poem that is a based on a painting of Icarus, but the painting and the poem both marginalize Icarus’s fall. I think the article was also taking this perspective. Sad is the main figure of the story because he is the one that isn’t going to fall from great heights. Sad is the one who is going to fall from regular heights into despair. He is the tragic figure that more aligns with wrestling’s unconscious connection to the fallen as the article described. Snyder, if he had lost, is the Icarus—fallen after being up so high..

https://m.poets.org/...ape-fall-icarus

Icarus tried to fly higher than he could and paid the price.  

 

Sadulaev literally tried to wrestle at a weight higher than he could and paid the price.  He is far more Icarus than Snyder is.  

 

If the argument is that Snyder has a big ego, then yes he does.  If the argument is Sadulaev doesn't, then read the rest of the thread about the guy who supposedly took a year off from training before deciding to take on an Olympic Champ 10 lbs bigger than him.  That is all ego (and not a bad kind that I want to knock him for).  He is a true champion who is the best in the world and knows it and thought he was unbeatable.  He wasn't.  That is far more Icarus than a guy who flexes after he wins.



#33 AHamilton

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 11:49 PM

Part of why it was a good read was the outside perspective. I also looked at Sadulaev as the favorite at the time. However, it makes sense to view him as the underdog given how big of size disadvantage he faced. Moving up wasn’t necessarily hubris-by all accounts the cut to 86 was tough and he had just won the Olympics. Sad is very humble in how he presents himself. And you can’t deny Snyder’s hubris-the guy wore an Ironman singlet this past weekend and drips confidence in all of his interviews. He has backed it up though-but he is still human like the rest of us (and Icarus).

The author goes into detail about the Russians being religious in the wrestling hotbeds, much like the Americans. The point he makes is that both groups are outsiders from the main stream of their country and looked down on by the elites (Moscow in Russia, cities and east/west coast in the US). You may find it condescending, but I think most people are less sensitive and can appreciate the parallels between US/Russian wrestlers. It’s especially apt now given the political dynamic of the world.

People who don't think that world class athletes are uber-confident are sadly mistaken.  You don't get that far without belief in yourself.  So Snyder "rage-flexed" after winning the biggest match in decades (a comeback win) and clinching the world team title?  Does he always behave like this? I don't think so.  To compare that to Sad easily defeating a Cuban ... not the same thing. (also, what is the record of Cubans in world/Olympic finals in the 20th century?)

 

And the religion of Snyder, Burroughs,  and Maroulis is front and center of the article, whereas it is barely mentioned for Sad, if at all.  And this is despite the fact that Sad is extremely devout.  Is Islam mentioned, yes... but not with the frequency of Christianity or the disdain.

 

I'll repeat: The author has some issues with middle America, Christianity, etc.


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#34 jcjcjc

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 12:25 AM

I like Snyder more than I like Sad. I am not showing any contempt for Snyder nor am I praising Sad.

Being literally smaller than Snyder does not make Sad Icarus. Icarus was not literally small and challenging a literally big thing. Snyder is literally trying to be a super hero like personality. Sad is spending a bunch of time with his wife eating food and then not wanting to cut weight. It isn’t hubris that compelled Sad to challenge Snyder, in my and the author’s opinion. It was hubris for Snyder to make the kind of comments and social media posts about being happy for Sad moving up: and it looks like this was a great attitude! It is still similar to Icarus in the author’s interpretation.

I am explaining the author’s perspective that some readers seem to assume is an insult. It isn’t. I say the word rage positively as a coach all the time. Rage = sprint or explode on shots etc.

AHamilton, if you think that Sad’s religion isn’t discussed, you are missing major points of the article. It literally says that people from his area consider ISIS-like religious extremist groups. That’s pretty religious!

#35 NJWC

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 01:12 AM

they stepped on the mat and snyder won no doubt... it was a great match... but...

to ignore the circumstances leading up to that match is silly...

to ignore the size difference is silly...

also, snyder has been training free exclusively for the last 3 years... he just showed up at some duals here and there and put on takedown clinics...


No, it’s silly to say a guy who just beat Sadulaev less than. Year ago will get shut out.
It’s sillly to dismiss results of an actual match at the world championships.
They showed up and weighed in at the same class, and wrestles. Snyder gave him the first TD.

Snyder has wrestled folk most of his life, including the time at tOSU. Sadulaev trained exclusively in free his whole life.
If you think Snyder wasn’t practicing folk as he prepared for
The postseason, you’re nuts.

#36 AHamilton

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:44 AM

I like Snyder more than I like Sad. I am not showing any contempt for Snyder nor am I praising Sad.

Being literally smaller than Snyder does not make Sad Icarus. Icarus was not literally small and challenging a literally big thing. Snyder is literally trying to be a super hero like personality. Sad is spending a bunch of time with his wife eating food and then not wanting to cut weight. It isn’t hubris that compelled Sad to challenge Snyder, in my and the author’s opinion. It was hubris for Snyder to make the kind of comments and social media posts about being happy for Sad moving up: and it looks like this was a great attitude! It is still similar to Icarus in the author’s interpretation.

I am explaining the author’s perspective that some readers seem to assume is an insult. It isn’t. I say the word rage positively as a coach all the time. Rage = sprint or explode on shots etc.

AHamilton, if you think that Sad’s religion isn’t discussed, you are missing major points of the article. It literally says that people from his area consider ISIS-like religious extremist groups. That’s pretty religious!

"His people" not him personally.

 

def. Rage: "a violent and uncontrolled anger."

 

I guess you're using it wrong.


Edited by AHamilton, 11 June 2018 - 02:50 AM.

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#37 LJB

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:48 AM

i guess Snyder has been lying for 3 years... because he has been quoted as saying he practices free exclusively... and still has no par terre... this is not some secret and has been discussed many times on this BBS in the past... thanks for playing though...

 

personally, i favor snyder in almost every match up with sad based purely on size alone... i think sad is the better wrestler hands down as far technique...

 

perhaps with a couple of years of packing on size and getting used to the extra weight, sad would be favored in my mind... it takes time for your body to adjust to going up weight classes and it does not take a genius to realize that...



#38 Shiraz123

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 03:49 AM

Snyder better than Sadulaev....No.Sad is a bloated 86 who bumped up and lost a one point match to Snyder after only wrestling trials. At their correct weight Sadulaev is far more impressive, no question. I do not see Sadulaev almost getting teched by Salas like Snyder. Sadulaev is not so much better that he can beat him while outsized, but he is the better wrestler. He went a very long period without even giving up a point. I remember Iranian fans were happy that Karimi even got two pushouts on him.

I wonder how the reaction would be if Jordan Burroughs went up to 86 (without putting on the size) and lost 6-5 to Sadulaev back when he was at the weight or Yazdani now. Would everyone here be claiming they are better that JB? I doubt it. In fact it would definitely be the opposite.
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#39 LJB

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 03:56 AM

did anyone really think coon was a better wrestler than snyder before kyle got his money back at NCAAs?



#40 boconnell

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:02 AM

I like Snyder more than I like Sad. I am not showing any contempt for Snyder nor am I praising Sad.

Being literally smaller than Snyder does not make Sad Icarus. Icarus was not literally small and challenging a literally big thing. Snyder is literally trying to be a super hero like personality. Sad is spending a bunch of time with his wife eating food and then not wanting to cut weight. It isn’t hubris that compelled Sad to challenge Snyder, in my and the author’s opinion. It was hubris for Snyder to make the kind of comments and social media posts about being happy for Sad moving up: and it looks like this was a great attitude! It is still similar to Icarus in the author’s interpretation.

I am explaining the author’s perspective that some readers seem to assume is an insult. It isn’t. I say the word rage positively as a coach all the time. Rage = sprint or explode on shots etc.

AHamilton, if you think that Sad’s religion isn’t discussed, you are missing major points of the article. It literally says that people from his area consider ISIS-like religious extremist groups. That’s pretty religious!

Hubris is absolutely not saying you are happy a guy moved up and then winning the resulting match.  You are not even close to the definition of Hubris.  


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