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Article about Snyder-Sadulaev match


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#41 boconnell

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:07 AM

Snyder better than Sadulaev....No.Sad is a bloated 86 who bumped up and lost a one point match to Snyder after only wrestling trials. At their correct weight Sadulaev is far more impressive, no question. I do not see Sadulaev almost getting teched by Salas like Snyder. Sadulaev is not so much better that he can beat him while outsized, but he is the better wrestler. He went a very long period without even giving up a point. I remember Iranian fans were happy that Karimi even got two pushouts on him.

I wonder how the reaction would be if Jordan Burroughs went up to 86 (without putting on the size) and lost 6-5 to Sadulaev back when he was at the weight or Yazdani now. Would everyone here be claiming they are better that JB? I doubt it. In fact it would definitely be the opposite.

The analogy only works if Burroughs was too big for 74 and then went up to 86 and lost and then went down to 79, never returning to 74.  

 

Sadulaev was clearly undersized in that match.  He is a better 86 KG wrestler than Snyder is a 97 KG wrestler, no doubt.  But Sadulaev is probably never an 86 KG wrestler again.  So if you want to put 2016 86 KG Sadulaev at the top of the 2018 heap go right ahead.  



#42 Shiraz123

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:16 AM

Who says Sadulaev is too big for 86? His own national team coaches want him to go back down. It's him and his personal coach who want to wrestle 92 or 97. We all saw him at 86, he was average sized. He was no bigger than Yasar, Karimi, Kudyamagmedov, Sharifov, etc.

Maybe its a tough cut but no way is it a case of he can't make it. Yazdani at 74 was a case of not being able to make it anymore. I feel Sadulaev probably over estimated his own abilities and thought he could keep winning without cutting weight. He loses to Snyder and then 92kg comes in, which is a weight full of guys who will be back at 86 for Tokyo. Did they all suddenly outgrow 86? No. So he stays at 92 and doesn't have to cut down to 86 and he also avoids having to face the bigger 97kg guys. If he keeps losing to Snyder I believe he will go back to 86 for 2020. It is no different from Burroughs trying 86. If Burroughs were to wrestle Sadulaev or Yazdani at 86 and lose by only 1 I would consider it as proof of Burroughs being better if anything.

Edited by Shiraz123, 11 June 2018 - 04:17 AM.


#43 Shiraz123

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:21 AM

Remember, Sharifov won 2011 worlds and 2012 Olympics at 84. He spends 4 years at 96kg being a backup in his own country and then goes down to 86 for Rio.

#44 denger

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 07:52 AM

I'll repeat: The author has some issues with middle America, Christianity, etc.

 

​As stated earlier in the thread, it was written for a politics section of an intellectual magazine. I agree that the biases were palpable, but I don't think that diminished the quality of the piece - if anything it made for a more contextualized read. It also made it less likely that it would be embraced by people reading for sports content, which it wasn't written for. He states pretty clearly that he was raised in a more privileged place than the post-industrial Middle American hotbed of American Wrestling, and other implications suggest that he's deeply conflicted by the embrace that those familiar places have shown of a new, unusually confident political leader. Do you think that his biases make his observations less valuable, or are they just irritating? 

 

As for hubris, I think the closest action we saw to that was Snyder's Instagram post standing arms outstretched over a stunned Sadulaev, lying on his back defeated, with the caption "undisputed" - a specific reference in the article. I don't think that this qualifies as hubris, but it's the closest thing to rubbing Sadulaev's nose in it, which would fit one definition: excessive pride of the perpetrator and at the cost of the victim. The difference that I see is that I don't think Snyder's pride is challenging the gods or is greater than life, but rather he's solely challenging his opponent while giving glory to God. For context, his Instagram post was one of a series that he made in the days after his huge victory, which I don't think is unexpected or outside of cultural norms (at least American norms).

 

I love being a fan of Snyder, but I was with the majority of fans, as I remember it,  NOT picking him to beat Sadulaev that month. I totally enjoyed his celebration in the days after. Looking back on those posts, and thinking about some of Snyder's other posts (particularly ahead of the PSU dual),  I see a young man who is clearly committed to his craft growing into his role as his country's leader in it. He says things that are expected from 21yr old guys, guys who are probably going to be humiliated a few times before they become more articulate. I guess that's the purpose of Nemesis, and of the Icarus parable. What I hate about the author's Icarus assertion is the implication that Snyder is due for an epic fall, one which he would not recover from. As other posters have noted, Snyder takes an occasional loss. He also goes through growing pains where he doesn't pin Nevils, and his team loses after he makes young-man comments ensuring the opposite. 

 

jcjcjc, I appreciate the poem you linked to, where Icarus fell and nobody really cared or noticed. I think it's a stretch to say that's the kind of reference that the writer was making, though. A lengthy piece like this could have afforded a few phrases to make that distinction if it were the intention. I think it was common hyperbole in the context of all the cultural associations and the political issues vaguely referenced - where people observing the exact same scene are often interpreting drastically different meanings. 


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#45 AHamilton

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 08:10 AM

​As stated earlier in the thread, it was written for a politics section of an intellectual magazine. I agree that the biases were palpable, but I don't think that diminished the quality of the piece - if anything it made for a more contextualized read. It also made it less likely that it would be embraced by people reading for sports content, which it wasn't written for. He states pretty clearly that he was raised in a more privileged place than the post-industrial Middle American hotbed of American Wrestling, and other implications suggest that he's deeply conflicted by the embrace that those familiar places have shown of a new, unusually confident political leader. Do you think that his biases make his observations less valuable, or are they just irritating? 

 

As for hubris, I think the closest action we saw to that was Snyder's Instagram post standing arms outstretched over a stunned Sadulaev, lying on his back defeated, with the caption "undisputed" - a specific reference in the article. I don't think that this qualifies as hubris, but it's the closest thing to rubbing Sadulaev's nose in it, which would fit one definition: excessive pride of the perpetrator and at the cost of the victim. The difference that I see is that I don't think Snyder's pride is challenging the gods or is greater than life, but rather he's solely challenging his opponent while giving glory to God. For context, his Instagram post was one of a series that he made in the days after his huge victory, which I don't think is unexpected or outside of cultural norms (at least American norms).

 

I love being a fan of Snyder, but I was with the majority of fans, as I remember it,  NOT picking him to beat Sadulaev that month. I totally enjoyed his celebration in the days after. Looking back on those posts, and thinking about some of Snyder's other posts (particularly ahead of the PSU dual),  I see a young man who is clearly committed to his craft growing into his role as his country's leader in it. He says things that are expected from 21yr old guys, guys who are probably going to be humiliated a few times before they become more articulate. I guess that's the purpose of Nemesis, and of the Icarus parable. What I hate about the author's Icarus assertion is the implication that Snyder is due for an epic fall, one which he would not recover from. As other posters have noted, Snyder takes an occasional loss. He also goes through growing pains where he doesn't pin Nevils, and his team loses after he makes young-man comments ensuring the opposite. 

 

jcjcjc, I appreciate the poem you linked to, where Icarus fell and nobody really cared or noticed. I think it's a stretch to say that's the kind of reference that the writer was making, though. A lengthy piece like this could have afforded a few phrases to make that distinction if it were the intention. I think it was common hyperbole in the context of all the cultural associations and the political issues vaguely referenced - where people observing the exact same scene are often interpreting drastically different meanings. 

 

As mentioned, I enjoyed the piece, but I found the biases of the author to be an irritant.  Does he feel guilty do to his privileged upbringing?  But he did his job, and I read it until the end.  I even considered recommending it to some people in my Social Studies department.  I also enjoy your analysis, denger.


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#46 denger

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 08:27 AM

As mentioned, I enjoyed the piece, but I found the biases of the author to be an irritant.  Does he feel guilty do to his privileged upbringing?  But he did his job, and I read it until the end.  I even considered recommending it to some people in my Social Studies department.  I also enjoy your analysis, denger.

 

I probably share his biases...which makes me less irritated! I also think that in addition to his internal conflicts, and despite being published in an intellectual magazine, he's lobbing this piece at us (wrestling fans) as a critical provocateur. 

I'd be curious to hear the perspective of people who aren't familiar at all with wrestling.  


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#47 wfan24

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 08:47 AM

- Sadulaev can make 86kg no problem. There is no real explanation that I've read anywhere which justifies his move to 97kg. This is a huge weight jump. 

 

- My speculation is that Sad got married after Olympics and that year he wanted to compete in something but not lose weight, so he went to 97kg. If there was 92kg he'd have gone there probably.

 

- NJWC, I think its fine to analyze the match to see what can happen next match. There are indicators. What is the issue? IMO, it will be very tough for Snyder to score a point. Snyder is great, but Sad is a prodigy.


Edited by wfan24, 11 June 2018 - 08:48 AM.


#48 AHamilton

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 09:19 AM

I probably share his biases...which makes me less irritated! I also think that in addition to his internal conflicts, and despite being published in an intellectual magazine, he's lobbing this piece at us (wrestling fans) as a critical provocateur. 

I'd be curious to hear the perspective of people who aren't familiar at all with wrestling.  

 

I do not share his biases, but at the same time, I would not want to read an article written from an opposite perspective (if that makes sense).  It is probably why I watch little news.  I am VERY interested in current events, but don't like there to be any spin.


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#49 NJWC

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:00 PM

- Sadulaev can make 86kg no problem. There is no real explanation that I've read anywhere which justifies his move to 97kg. This is a huge weight jump.

- My speculation is that Sad got married after Olympics and that year he wanted to compete in something but not lose weight, so he went to 97kg. If there was 92kg he'd have gone there probably.

- NJWC, I think its fine to analyze the match to see what can happen next match. There are indicators. What is the issue? IMO, it will be very tough for Snyder to score a point. Snyder is great, but Sad is a prodigy.


Absurdly biased. I’ll tell you what, how about a bet.
If hey meet at worlds this year, and Sad shuts out Snyder, I’ll disappear from the boards. If Snyder scores, will you admit to your lack of objectivity?
Snyder is 21 and a 4 time world/Olympic champ. He beat your guy head to head.
Who is the prodigy?

#50 Billyhoyle

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:08 PM

Absurdly biased. I’ll tell you what, how about a bet.
If hey meet at worlds this year, and Sad shuts out Snyder, I’ll disappear from the boards. If Snyder scores, will you admit to your lack of objectivity?
Snyder is 21 and a 4 time world/Olympic champ. He beat your guy head to head.
Who is the prodigy?

Why not both?


Edited by Billyhoyle, 11 June 2018 - 02:08 PM.


#51 spladle

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:09 PM

Both are prodigies wouldn't you think? Snyder had 3 world and Olympic golds as does Sadulaev. Snyder happened to get the best of it in a close match. I really hope a rematch is in the cards somewhere.

#52 jcjcjc

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 03:46 PM

Hubris is absolutely not saying you are happy a guy moved up and then winning the resulting match.  You are not even close to the definition of Hubris.  

 

If he lost, it would be perceived as hubris by many. I think the author perceived a Snyder loss as a something that would illustrate hubris--not necessarily that it would be caused by hubris and need punished, but that in retrospect, his comments and actions would look like hubris to many. 

 

His twitter handle alludes to Spiderman, he wears singlets of other super heroes, he is a supremely confident person--many wrestling fans see this thing and say, "you gotta be good to wear that singlet," meaning that we seem to love the arrogance of someone unless they fall like Icarus. 

 

If other athletes competed in super hero uniforms, wouldn't people call that person cocky, wouldn't people possibly call it hubris? Again, I love Snyder's attitude, but the article is great literature--it makes you question your assumptions and creates a space full of interpretation by offering its own interpretation. 

 

Snyder could have been Icarus, but he didn't fall--he transcended this comparison with victory--he was also compared to Zeus in the article.

Maybe Tom Ryan and Tervel are Deadalus giving Snyder/Icarus wings. 

Minos could have been Sad. trapping all of the world championships he could in his tower or labyrinth. 



#53 jcjcjc

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 03:51 PM

 

jcjcjc, I appreciate the poem you linked to, where Icarus fell and nobody really cared or noticed. I think it's a stretch to say that's the kind of reference that the writer was making, though. A lengthy piece like this could have afforded a few phrases to make that distinction if it were the intention. I think it was common hyperbole in the context of all the cultural associations and the political issues vaguely referenced - where people observing the exact same scene are often interpreting drastically different meanings. 

 

 

I like your point. I'm not saying that author would have not cared that Snyder lost, but he wouldn't have been as concerned about him as he seemed to be for Sad. 

 

I geek out on text-to-text connections, so thank for all your comments. 



#54 LJB

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 03:51 PM

Why not both?

because that is what he has not been sold by the media...

 

there is no reason why you should not be allowed to appreciate excellence no matter where it was born... 



#55 denger

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:56 PM

I like your point. I'm not saying that author would have not cared that Snyder lost, but he wouldn't have been as concerned about him as he seemed to be for Sad. 

 

I geek out on text-to-text connections, so thank for all your comments. 

 

backatcha on the comments!

 

It was also interesting to me that the author landed in Sadulaev's corner. He seemed equally infatuated with both at first, but then seemed to pivot on their reactions to opponents and one another. 

 

Ever since Snyder's breakout Senior-Level season, his reaction to realizing his accomplishments have been very raw and plainly human - Varner, followed by the run on the 2015 Worlds capped by beating Gadisov. It was unreal, and we watched the kid adjust to our new reality. My interpretation of that season was that Snyder's Faith was superseding his expectations. He was realizing a vision that he believed in more than he had calculated. He seemed surprised, and we loved it!

I don't know when Kyle will be considered a real favorite, and I kinda hope he never is because he succeeds so well as the underdog.

Anyway, I don't share his Faith, but i respect it. I don't think that he's due for any kind of epic fall either. Sure, he'll take an occasional loss, and he'll make adjustments like we've seen very recently. 

 

I think the Icarus analogy is expected because we're dealing with two young phenoms. It's also useful for the politics of the article, but I'll leave that here. I'll hope for numerous epic analogies in the future as well! 



#56 jcjcjc

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 05:02 PM

backatcha on the comments!

 

It was also interesting to me that the author landed in Sadulaev's corner. He seemed equally infatuated with both at first, but then seemed to pivot on their reactions to opponents and one another. 

 

Ever since Snyder's breakout Senior-Level season, his reaction to realizing his accomplishments have been very raw and plainly human - Varner, followed by the run on the 2015 Worlds capped by beating Gadisov. It was unreal, and we watched the kid adjust to our new reality. My interpretation of that season was that Snyder's Faith was superseding his expectations. He was realizing a vision that he believed in more than he had calculated. He seemed surprised, and we loved it!

I don't know when Kyle will be considered a real favorite, and I kinda hope he never is because he succeeds so well as the underdog.

Anyway, I don't share his Faith, but i respect it. I don't think that he's due for any kind of epic fall either. Sure, he'll take an occasional loss, and he'll make adjustments like we've seen very recently. 

 

I think the Icarus analogy is expected because we're dealing with two young phenoms. It's also useful for the politics of the article, but I'll leave that here. I'll hope for numerous epic analogies in the future as well! 

 

I enjoy the Icarus analogy, but I don't expect it to become true for Kyle, but I see how Snyder's exuberance appears like Icarus to someone in the arena. 

 

How impactful would Kyle Snyder's yells be when heard and seen from just thirty feet away? Wow...especially with Sad. just standing there like he's about to read the paper, haha. 



#57 NJWC

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 12:51 AM

Why not both?


I agree. The Sad fan appears to think the American 21 year old multi world and Olympic champ is not.

Edited by NJWC, 12 June 2018 - 12:52 AM.


#58 NJWC

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 12:54 AM

because that is what he has not been sold by the media...

there is no reason why you should not be allowed to appreciate excellence no matter where it was born...


I don’t think that’s the case here. I think Billy (and myself) were referring to Wfan stating Snyder is great, but Dadulaev is a prodigy.
If Snyder isn’t a prodigy, who is?

Agree?

#59 LJB

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 02:20 AM

clearly, they are both great wrestlers... both will be talked about long after they quit competing...

 

i just think one of them has displayed more dominance than the other regardless of head to head... and i am always going to go with guy who actually has par terre chops... 



#60 NJWC

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 05:06 AM

clearly, they are both great wrestlers... both will be talked about long after they quit competing...

i just think one of them has displayed more dominance than the other regardless of head to head... and i am always going to go with guy who actually has par terre chops...


I agree, but I’m not a fan of excuse making. In this case, apologies for Sadulaev.
If he didn’t prepare properly, that’s i”on him. If he bit off more than he could chew by going up, that’s on him.
Hell, I don’t like guys making excuses when they’re bumped up in a dual meet, despite weighing in down a weight.
Sad weighed in at Snyder’s class. They wrestled. Could the results change? Sure, but the only match they’ve actually wrestled can’t be dismissed. Does that make sense?




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