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Division 1 Dual team Tournament Format for EVERY D1 Team

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I was in St. Louis last week, hanging with this board's own killdozer (supremely excellent dude, by the way), and he mentioned an idea about changing the season and an idea about tournaments. He mentioned something about regionals and it had me thinking... what if the dual team national tournament included EVERY team in Division 1? How is that possible you ask? Well, let me tell you MY thoughts!

 

1. Break the tournament up into four distinct regions. Instead of tying them to geographic locations, let's call them regions 1, 2, 3 and 4.

 

2. Break the tournament up into two weekends. The first weekend would feature (using the 76 teams in D1 as of the 2017-18 season) four, 19 team tournaments. The tournaments would have four rounds on the championship side of the bracket and would be designed to find the two finalists from each Region. Those two undefeated teams would not compete until weekend two, bringing the top eight teams from the four dual tournaments to another site two weeks later. The rest of the teams would finish the tournament out, guaranteeing each team at least two duals on the weekend, and maybe more if the coaches wanted to find a way to make it happen.

 

For an example of this, see the NWCA Multi-Divisional Dual brackets for everyone except Division 3.

 

3. Not unlike the NCAA basketball tournament, teams in each Region will be seeded 1-16, with proper seeding and the top four teams garnering the top seeds in each of the four regional tournaments. In this case, seeding is based on point scoring from the previous year's national tournament (let's use 2018, for example: found here). As you can see, Penn State would face Fresno State out of the gates in Region 1. In Region 2, Ohio State would face Cal Poly. Region 3 would feature Iowa versus Binghamton and Region 4 would start off with Michigan vs. Oklahoma U.

 

4. As I mentioned, since there are 19 teams per Region (as of the 2017-18 season), for those final 12 teams outside of the top 64, three teams are randomly drawn into each Regional site.

 

5. Those top eight teams would convene in a centralized location, say, Chicago (selfish me) and determine the top eight teams for that dual year.

 

What does any of this accomplish? Here are my thoughts:

1. Every single team is now included and has a stake in the game. That makes programs, colleges/university ADs and the NCAA very happy.

 

2. It (typically) breaks up the traditional powers. While that will change year to year, you see no more than four B10 teams in any of the brackets. 

 

3. Who can be the "bracket buster" each year? Yeah, I know... this isn't basketball. That said, what teams wouldn't relish the chance at making the "Elite Eight" by knocking off a highly ranked team? Maybe a non-traditional power each year can take advantage of injuries or lack of a gas tank... maybe?

 

4. Teams that might not normally face one another are now facing one another in this format. It's great for the sport's fan base. Here are some of the rat tail match ups that I came up with at random to give you an idea of what I mean (not all are sexy, if any):

 

Region 1:

Gardner Webb face Northern Illinois and feeds into Lock Haven

Northwestern faces Citadel and feeds into the winner of Eastern Michigan and Bloomsburg

 

Region 2:

SIUE and Stanford go at it with Pitt waiting in the wings

Bono's Wisconsin team duals Davidson, the winner then seeing Rider

Cornell and Air Force go at it, with Franklin & Marshall on the receiving end

 

Region 3:

Oklahoma State goes against VMI, who then feeds into the winner of Michigan State and Brown

SUNY Buffalo takes on Columbia U, the winner moving on to see Duke U.

 

Region 4:

Cleveland State face Iowa State and feeds into UNorth Carolina

Sacred Heart duals Clarion, with the winner going up against South Dakota State

Oregon State battles Ohio U and the winner takes on Utah Valley

 

4. Each year is something new! It's not always the same old teams dualing one another and it offers (somewhat of) an element of surprise.

 

My final thought on this is that you could even do away with conference tournaments and go to this exact same medium for individual tournaments. You place the top eight wrestlers with the one wild card per weight going to the last kid who lost to the young man who finishes seventh in each bracket. Though the teams in each region are based on last year's results, the individuals are seeded based on individual criteria.

 

Here would be the example of the teams in each region (again, based on 2017-18 results):

 

Region 1                        Region 2                         Region 3                           Region 4

1.Penn State                  2. Ohio State                   3. Iowa                               4. Michigan

64. Fresno State            63. Cal Poly                     62. Binghamton                 61. Oklahoma

32. Virginia                     31. Pitt                             30. West Virginia               29. Purdue

33. CSU Bakersfield      34. Stanford                     35. Drexel                          36. Edinboro

17. Minnesota                DI. SIUE                          19. Wyoming                      20. UNC

48. Chattanooga            18. Wisconsin                  46. North Dakota State      DI. Cleveland State

DI. Gardner Webb          DI. Davidson                   14. Oklahoma State           45. Iowa State

49. Northern Illinois        47. Rider                          DI. VMI                              13. Illinois

16. Lock Haven              15. Lehigh                        DI. Michigan State            52. Bucknell

9. Nebraska                    50. Appalachian State     51. Brown                          12. South Dakota State

56. American                  10. Arizona State             11. Rutgers                       DI. Sacred Heart

24. Northern Iowa           55. Indiana                       54. Old Dominion             53. Clarion

41. Penn                         23. Kent State                  22. Duke                           21. Oregon State

25. Northwestern            42. Army                           DI. SUNY-Buffalo             DI. Ohio U

DI. Citadel                       26. Princeton                   43. Columbia U                44. Utah Valley

40. Eastern Michigan      39. Northern Colorado     27. Maryland                    28. Hofstra

DI. Bloomsburg               7. Cornell                         38. Central Michigan        37. Navy

8. Virginia Tech               DI. Air Force                     6. Missouri                       5. NC State

57. Campbell                  58. Franklin & Marshall     59. George Mason          60. Harvard

 

DI = Drawn In (finished outside of top 64)

 

The teams (and their strengths) in each region change from year to year, and it keeps the 

 

Thoughts?

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I really like the idea - I wish this would happen. It would be good for the sport to have it's own "March Madness" and it would crown a true regular season/duals champion. I would be all for it..... Unfortunately the NCAA and probably even more so, coaches, will destroy this with excuses and politics. Even more unfortunate is that fans are sometimes even more of a buzzkill. 

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go with returning ncaa points instead of last  years team scores.

 

 

GREAT IDEA!

and just think... relevant wrestling 2 or 3 weeks in a row!!

and each team can follow just their team... and every guy wrestles... wow.

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I was in St. Louis last week, hanging with this board's own killdozer (supremely excellent dude, by the way), and he mentioned an idea about changing the season and an idea about tournaments. He mentioned something about regionals and it had me thinking... what if the dual team national tournament included EVERY team in Division 1? How is that possible you ask? Well, let me tell you MY thoughts!

 

1. Break the tournament up into four distinct regions. Instead of tying them to geographic locations, let's call them regions 1, 2, 3 and 4.

 

2. Break the tournament up into two weekends. The first weekend would feature (using the 76 teams in D1 as of the 2017-18 season) four, 19 team tournaments. The tournaments would have four rounds on the championship side of the bracket and would be designed to find the two finalists from each Region. Those two undefeated teams would not compete until weekend two, bringing the top eight teams from the four dual tournaments to another site two weeks later. The rest of the teams would finish the tournament out, guaranteeing each team at least two duals on the weekend, and maybe more if the coaches wanted to find a way to make it happen.

 

For an example of this, see the NWCA Multi-Divisional Dual brackets for everyone except Division 3.

 

3. Not unlike the NCAA basketball tournament, teams in each Region will be seeded 1-16, with proper seeding and the top four teams garnering the top seeds in each of the four regional tournaments. In this case, seeding is based on point scoring from the previous year's national tournament (let's use 2018, for example: found here). As you can see, Penn State would face Fresno State out of the gates in Region 1. In Region 2, Ohio State would face Cal Poly. Region 3 would feature Iowa versus Binghamton and Region 4 would start off with Michigan vs. Oklahoma U.

 

4. As I mentioned, since there are 19 teams per Region (as of the 2017-18 season), for those final 12 teams outside of the top 64, three teams are randomly drawn into each Regional site.

 

5. Those top eight teams would convene in a centralized location, say, Chicago (selfish me) and determine the top eight teams for that dual year.

 

What does any of this accomplish? Here are my thoughts:

1. Every single team is now included and has a stake in the game. That makes programs, colleges/university ADs and the NCAA very happy.

 

2. It (typically) breaks up the traditional powers. While that will change year to year, you see no more than four B10 teams in any of the brackets. 

 

3. Who can be the "bracket buster" each year? Yeah, I know... this isn't basketball. That said, what teams wouldn't relish the chance at making the "Elite Eight" by knocking off a highly ranked team? Maybe a non-traditional power each year can take advantage of injuries or lack of a gas tank... maybe?

 

4. Teams that might not normally face one another are now facing one another in this format. It's great for the sport's fan base. Here are some of the rat tail match ups that I came up with at random to give you an idea of what I mean (not all are sexy, if any):

 

Region 1:

Gardner Webb face Northern Illinois and feeds into Lock Haven

Northwestern faces Citadel and feeds into the winner of Eastern Michigan and Bloomsburg

 

Region 2:

SIUE and Stanford go at it with Pitt waiting in the wings

Bono's Wisconsin team duals Davidson, the winner then seeing Rider

Cornell and Air Force go at it, with Franklin & Marshall on the receiving end

 

Region 3:

Oklahoma State goes against VMI, who then feeds into the winner of Michigan State and Brown

SUNY Buffalo takes on Columbia U, the winner moving on to see Duke U.

 

Region 4:

Cleveland State face Iowa State and feeds into UNorth Carolina

Sacred Heart duals Clarion, with the winner going up against South Dakota State

Oregon State battles Ohio U and the winner takes on Utah Valley

 

4. Each year is something new! It's not always the same old teams dualing one another and it offers (somewhat of) an element of surprise.

 

My final thought on this is that you could even do away with conference tournaments and go to this exact same medium for individual tournaments. You place the top eight wrestlers with the one wild card per weight going to the last kid who lost to the young man who finishes seventh in each bracket. Though the teams in each region are based on last year's results, the individuals are seeded based on individual criteria.

 

Here would be the example of the teams in each region (again, based on 2017-18 results):

 

Region 1                        Region 2                         Region 3                           Region 4

1.Penn State                  2. Ohio State                   3. Iowa                               4. Michigan

64. Fresno State            63. Cal Poly                     62. Binghamton                 61. Oklahoma

32. Virginia                     31. Pitt                             30. West Virginia               29. Purdue

33. CSU Bakersfield      34. Stanford                     35. Drexel                          36. Edinboro

17. Minnesota                DI. SIUE                          19. Wyoming                      20. UNC

48. Chattanooga            18. Wisconsin                  46. North Dakota State      DI. Cleveland State

DI. Gardner Webb          DI. Davidson                   14. Oklahoma State           45. Iowa State

49. Northern Illinois        47. Rider                          DI. VMI                              13. Illinois

16. Lock Haven              15. Lehigh                        DI. Michigan State            52. Bucknell

9. Nebraska                    50. Appalachian State     51. Brown                          12. South Dakota State

56. American                  10. Arizona State             11. Rutgers                       DI. Sacred Heart

24. Northern Iowa           55. Indiana                       54. Old Dominion             53. Clarion

41. Penn                         23. Kent State                  22. Duke                           21. Oregon State

25. Northwestern            42. Army                           DI. SUNY-Buffalo             DI. Ohio U

DI. Citadel                       26. Princeton                   43. Columbia U                44. Utah Valley

40. Eastern Michigan      39. Northern Colorado     27. Maryland                    28. Hofstra

DI. Bloomsburg               7. Cornell                         38. Central Michigan        37. Navy

8. Virginia Tech               DI. Air Force                     6. Missouri                       5. NC State

57. Campbell                  58. Franklin & Marshall     59. George Mason          60. Harvard

 

DI = Drawn In (finished outside of top 64)

 

The teams (and their strengths) in each region change from year to year, and it keeps the 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I think this is a great idea - may need some massaging to make it totally viable - but a great starting point.

 

We could all make excuses why it would/could never happen... or maybe we could all contact our local D1 team(s) and let them know we think its a good idea? I'm for the latter.

 

When I look at Tofurkey's (4) Region lists, it's almost like it's a Final Four bracket waiting to happen.

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go with returning ncaa points instead of last  years team scores.

 

 

I'd like to think this is possible, but here are my arguments in opposition to your idea as of today:

 

1. You want to have the tournament set as early as possible for scheduling/venue selection for the following season.

 

2. The new transfer rules make it really hard to do just that in a reasonable amount of time and meet number one.

 

3. I like the idea that last year's place winners have to defend something, but that another team could bump them off and change the order. Sure, we all know when a team is losing strength, but not all of us are superfans of the sport and to a lot of folks (fringe folks and others who might be interested), that adds the element of "instability" that you see in the NCAA basketball tournament and gets people to watch or check up on scores when they might not have otherwise.

 

4. To bolster point three, if you want to win, you have to win out. Period.

 

5. Maybe the NWCA and NCAA strategically set two of the two day regional tournaments each year in places where they want to grow the sport... For example, maybe they every year find two host schools they want to (re-)establish programs and contract with them for the tournament. Here are some examples: Syracuse U., Boston U., U of Louisville, Clemson U. Georgia Tech, Florida State U., U of Kansas, U of Texas at Austin, U of New Mexico, U of Washington and Washington State U, among others. Invite the university president, board of trustees, AD and a bunch of dignitaries to come and schmooze them.

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I've always thought that all teams should be included and a NCAA dual champion should be crowned (while keeping an individual as well).

 

Have ESPN cover it, NOT FLO!

 

This event should raise the revenue to help cover travel costs which is important for the smaller programs whose money is tight. Notice I said "help" because it won't cover them 100% and the NCAA will have their hands in the jar.

 

ESPN goes right to the NCAA and athletic directors. DO NOT GO THROUGH THE COACHES OR IT WILL BE DOA!.

 

The decision process on the future cannot go through the coaches.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Edited by paboom

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The NCAA is never going to sanction 2 separate team championships for wrestling.

 

Then don't crown a team champion at the individual tournament. Use the points at the individual tournament only as a seeding basis for the next year's dual tournament and announce the team placewinners at the individual tournament.

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Then don't crown a team champion at the individual tournament. Use the points at the individual tournament only as a seeding basis for the next year's dual tournament and announce the team placewinners at the individual tournament.

I hear you, but dramatically changing the most popular domestic wrestling event is a poor decision

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I'd like to think this is possible, but here are my arguments in opposition to your idea as of today:

 

1. You want to have the tournament set as early as possible for scheduling/venue selection for the following season.

 

2. The new transfer rules make it really hard to do just that in a reasonable amount of time and meet number one.

 

3. I like the idea that last year's place winners have to defend something, but that another team could bump them off and change the order. Sure, we all know when a team is losing strength, but not all of us are superfans of the sport and to a lot of folks (fringe folks and others who might be interested), that adds the element of "instability" that you see in the NCAA basketball tournament and gets people to watch or check up on scores when they might not have otherwise.

 

4. To bolster point three, if you want to win, you have to win out. Period.

 

5. Maybe the NWCA and NCAA strategically set two of the two day regional tournaments each year in places where they want to grow the sport... For example, maybe they every year find two host schools they want to (re-)establish programs and contract with them for the tournament. Here are some examples: Syracuse U., Boston U., U of Louisville, Clemson U. Georgia Tech, Florida State U., U of Kansas, U of Texas at Austin, U of New Mexico, U of Washington and Washington State U, among others. Invite the university president, board of trustees, AD and a bunch of dignitaries to come and schmooze them.

i get you have to have this years results and perhaps transfers...tho you could transfer those points...

 

but in your first post you have it seeded based on total points... not returning points. am i missing something?

 

we just need to reserve the arenas ahead of time... just like they do with the tourney...

 

we know 4 years into the future where it's going to be.

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Not a fan, admittedly. If there's going to be a dual championship (and I have no idea how the Blue Ribbon Task Force proposal is going), it has to be limited to a smaller number of teams, in order to make the regular season matter, IMO.

maybe this IS the NEW regular season... or part of it.

 

maybe we dont limit it to two weekends... 

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i get you have to have this years results and perhaps transfers...tho you could transfer those points...

 

but in your first post you have it seeded based on total points... not returning points. am i missing something?

 

we just need to reserve the arenas ahead of time... just like they do with the tourney...

 

we know 4 years into the future where it's going to be.

 

Agreed on the accommodations. And, as I mentioned, if, for example, we can get that AMAZING Iowa fan base to travel to a place like Atlanta or have the Ohio State fans flood the KFC Yum! Center (I wish I were making that up) in Louisville, KY, this could mean investment in and growth for the sport of collegiate wrestling on the Division 1 level. 

 

The reason I have been sticking with previous year point totals is that it's far easier to follow from a fan perspective; there's no deciphering what teams lost how many points and who transferred where. "Why is Penn State dualing Fresno State in the first round? Oh! I see last year's results; one versus sixty-four." There's no confusion involved.

 

Also, not every team is going to be the same strength from year to year. I think this is where one is likely to see upsets occurring from teams that might be better dual teams than tournament teams and it adds another level of suspense to the tournament. Did Fresno currently stand a chance against Penn State this season? Obviously not, but next year they're going to be even better and more competitive than they were this season, so it makes for a more interesting match up going into 2018-19. Maybe in 2020, with this tournament and a different seed, you see the Bulldogs sneak into the Sweet 16 or Elite Eight. Maybe I am wrong.

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The reason I have been sticking with previous year point totals is that it's far easier to follow from a fan perspective; there's no deciphering what teams lost how many points and who transferred where. "Why is Penn State dualing Fresno State in the first round? Oh! I see last year's results; one versus sixty-four." There's no confusion involved.

 

 

i like it

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I like the idea but I don’t know about automatically qualifying ALL teams from the get go. An athletic director might look at a smaller wrestling program that is always knocked out in the first round by Penn State, Iowa, NC State, etc while not getting anyone to Nationals and say “why do we continue to fund this program?”

 

I had an idea similar to this but would mirror more like UEFA Champions League. Each Conference, based on the previous year’s results, will get at least two representatives into the 32 team Dual Tournament bracket and based on strength of conference can get more representatives (for example the final team standings of the NCAA Individual Championships). Each conference team champion would be seeded 1-8 and the remainder of the teams seeded so not to have the same teams of a conference meet in the first round.  Dual Tournament Winner would get an automatic bid into next year’s tournament.

 

It would only span at most 5 days that can be spread out though the season. This would help with logistics if teams form each coast have to meet

For the remainder of the teams that did not make the Dual Tournament, there could be a play in bracket like the NIT, only the winner of the consolation tournament gets an automatic bid into next years National Dual Tournament.

 

For example, the qualifying teams for this coming season could be (these are not exact 2018 final standings):

 

ACC (4)               Big Ten  (7)       Big XII (4)                 EIWA (5)          EWL  (3)          MAC (3)            SoCon (2)       PAC12  (2)             

NC State             Penn State         Oklahoma St            Cornell              Rider                Missouri            App State           Arizona State

Virginia Tech       Ohio State          UNI                           Lehigh              Edinboro          C Michigan        Chattanooga      Oregon State

North Carolina     Michigan            South Dakota St      Binghamton      Lock Haven      Old Dominion

Pittsburgh            Nebraska           Wyoming                 Navy                

                            Iowa                                                   Princeton         

                            Illinois                                                                         

                            Northwestern

 

Two open spots for last year’s winner and Consolation Tournament winner

 

The idea is two-fold in that it would put an emphasis on duals, especially within the conference, and a way for coaches to show that the program is achieving. It might also help with having wrestlers not sit out duals.

 

Just a very rough idea.

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We should get last year's thread or the one from the summer of 2016 snd just insert it here. Save us all the needless acrimony since if this thread even goes anywhere it will be indistinguishable from those two threads.

carl?

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I like the idea but I don’t know about automatically qualifying ALL teams from the get go. An athletic director might look at a smaller wrestling program that is always knocked out in the first round by Penn State, Iowa, NC State, etc while not getting anyone to Nationals and say “why do we continue to fund this program?”

 

 

the same could be said for a program who comes home from the NCAA tourney with a big goose egg.

 

or no qualifiers

Edited by GockeS

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