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Tofurky

Too Many D1 Programs?

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Is Division 1 the ONLY option in your mind? If you go back and read the original post, and not take the title at face value, you'll see I said, in the second sentence, no less, "Would the wrestling community be better off limiting the number of Division 1 programs to, say, 40 in order to keep the best talent there, so then as to focus on growth in D2, D3, NAIA (you can throw in NJCAA and maybe even develop RTC-type programs at institutions without an NCAA, NAIA or NJCAA program, as an addendum), but that aren't going to be in the running for the likes of the kids in the Intermat/Mat Talk/Flo rankings?" Right there, I gave a far more reasonable and cost effective solution for 98-99% of high school wrestlers out there to continue competing after high school.

 

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5067286-you-do-the-math-high-school-participation-numbers - the numbers of high school wrestlers are shrinking. Of the 250,653 high school wrestlers in 2015-16, how many were girls who will not be competing for any men's programs in college? Take that number out and the number continues to drop. Then, how many of the remaining kids were high school seniors? My assumption is that the largest numbers you'll find are at the freshman level, where kids are trying the sport for the first time. Most won't stick with it, but they are among those numbers. Of those seniors, how many of them are "Division 1 athletes" who will ever be starters for the teams for which they intend to compete?

 

Why would we push for more Division 1 opportunities, so wrestling can make an effort keep up with football and basketball to make the fan base feel better about where the sport stands in the landscape of collegiate athletics? So dad (and maybe mom) can boast to their friends that their kid is on X Division 1 team? So we can kid ourselves into further believing that wrestling is more important to American culture than it really is?

 

American society has spoken... for the last 30-some-odd years. The numbers are not in our favor. Public perception is that wrestling is seen as little more than breeding ground for mixed martial arts and, to a far lesser extent, a core Olympic sport that people think happens once every four years. We, as a community, need to be more honest with ourselves about this and figure out how to adjust for the benefit of those involved with this sport we all enjoy. Part of this means growing programs at levels which are not D1 (because it costs a hell of a lot less and the interest is there) and to stop kidding ourselves that every kid out there is worthy of D1 designation, leading high school coaches, club coaches, dads, moms, grandparents, siblings and everyone in town that there just isn't enough access. There IS enough access at the D1 level, but the level of talent isn't there to support all those programs.

I really hope you’re not a coach. Or involved in youth wrestling at all, actually.

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This is the worst take since the clown who thought a young coach who was moving to an area where he had no connection might not work out...

 

For those wondering, that clown was some Britt Malinsky character. (that coach was Cael Sanderson, and the area was Centre County, Pennsylvania)

 

No, it's not and it's not even close.

 

What's a far, far worse take is convincing people that access to D1 is an issue. It isn't; not everyone scholarship-level student-wrestler NEEDS to go to Penn State, Ohio State, Iowa or Okie State to have had a successful career in D1. There are many programs out there offering ample opportunities to be a D1 student-athlete. 

 

Even worse than that is convincing kids and their parents that they are the next Logan Stieber or J'Den Cox, when they were a two-time state qualifier and finished fifth once as a senior.

 

What actually might be the worst is the prevailing ideology on this and almost every other wrestling comment board that the only real collegiate wrestling experience that matters can be had is in Division 1.

 

This year in the NCAA, Division 1 wrestling makes up 31 percent (76 programs from 242 total; 62 in D2 and 104 in D3) of the opportunities available to aspiring college wrestlers. You're telling me that more than three out of every ten high school senior student wrestlers is a Division 1 athlete? I will stridently disagree with you immediately.

 

In terms of access, add in NAIA (63 programs in 2017-18) and NJCAA (47 programs in 2017-18) and high school senior wrestlers have 352 different opportunities to compete in college in 2017-18. That number doesn't include the more than 100 NCWA "club" teams out there. Of those, roughly 70% (D1, D2, NAIA and NJCAA) have the opportunity to offer financial reward for student-wrestlers. Maybe right sizing kids to not only meximize their potentials, but also to use their talents to afford college, is a better slogan than "D1 or Bust."

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We wouldn't be having this discussion if all the schools in the ACC, SEC, Big12, Pac-12, and Big Ten sponsored D1 teams. If that were happening, no one would say that 80+ programs was too many.

 

 

However, people say there are too many D1 schools when there are a lot of them that aren't the big sports brands and that don't have a multi-million dollar wrestling budgets.

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While we are at it, over the past 9 years we have had more wrestling teams win D1 Titles than in the entire history of NCAA D1 football. In reality we need more programs even if many will never win it all. Individual sport needs top competition and giving the athletes choices in schooling only helps.

not sure what you mean by this... 3 teams won over the last 9 years.

or are you talking individual titles? 

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No offense, but that's a stupid response.  Just because that many scholarships are permissible does not mean that they have to be funded.  Increasing the number of permissible scholarships would not result in schools dropping the sport.

oh i agree.

but lets see just how much talent PSU can stockpile when given further opportunity.

 

or any other program.

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No, it's not and it's not even close.

 

What's a far, far worse take is convincing people that access to D1 is an issue. It isn't; not everyone scholarship-level student-wrestler NEEDS to go to Penn State, Ohio State, Iowa or Okie State to have had a successful career in D1. There are many programs out there offering ample opportunities to be a D1 student-athlete. 

 

Even worse than that is convincing kids and their parents that they are the next Logan Stieber or J'Den Cox, when they were a two-time state qualifier and finished fifth once as a senior.

 

What actually might be the worst is the prevailing ideology on this and almost every other wrestling comment board that the only real collegiate wrestling experience that matters can be had is in Division 1.

 

This year in the NCAA, Division 1 wrestling makes up 31 percent (76 programs from 242 total; 62 in D2 and 104 in D3) of the opportunities available to aspiring college wrestlers. You're telling me that more than three out of every ten high school senior student wrestlers is a Division 1 athlete? I will stridently disagree with you immediately.

 

In terms of access, add in NAIA (63 programs in 2017-18) and NJCAA (47 programs in 2017-18) and high school senior wrestlers have 352 different opportunities to compete in college in 2017-18. That number doesn't include the more than 100 NCWA "club" teams out there. Of those, roughly 70% (D1, D2, NAIA and NJCAA) have the opportunity to offer financial reward for student-wrestlers. Maybe right sizing kids to not only meximize their potentials, but also to use their talents to afford college, is a better slogan than "D1 or Bust."

So you because you don't like kids college choices you think we should move half the country down a division?  

 

Are you really so sure you know what's best for the 18 year olds of the world that you want to restructure college wrestling to force them into what you view as smart decisions?  Your arrogance is colossal.  

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No offense, but that's a stupid response. Just because that many scholarships are permissible does not mean that they have to be funded. Increasing the number of permissible scholarships would not result in schools dropping the sport.

It has to do with the perception from AD's who privately wish to drop wrestling. Increase the scholarships which benefit maybe 25 programs and you give the excuse to throw in the towel.

 

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Why do you say that?

Well if you must know, it is because you come off like a pompous a hole.

 

***unless of course you’re just trying to make the cut off on FRLs “ridiculously bad takes” segment or whatever they’re calling it. In which case bravo***

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Look, the argument to have 76 or 80 or 100+ D1 programs is only based on the fantasy that the bottom 60 programs actually one day have a chance to become competitive.

 

Reality. They don't. There isn't a magical unicorned coach that can walk into any 40th ranked program and get them to 9.9 scholarships, 10+ new financial aid allotments annually, redshirt, greyshirt or deferred enrollment options, cheap dorms and food services for camps in a geographical goldmine not dominated by a top 5 program, 200k in RTC donations (not including fundraising so your volunteer assistant makes more than 25k) and scheduling that stinks because they are in a lousy program and that coaches make their own schedules and not AD's outside of the Big 10.

 

Before anyone mentions South Dakota State, remove Gross who is the 133lb starter for Iowa and then talk.

 

 

 

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Edited by paboom

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Look, the argument to have 76 or 80 or 100+ D1 programs is only based on the fantasy that the bottom 60 programs actually one day have a chance to become competitive.

Reality. They don't. There isn't a magical unicorned coach that can walk into any 40th ranked program and get them to 9.9 scholarships, 10+ new financial aid allotments annually, redshirt, greyshirt or deferred enrollment options, cheap dorms and food services for camps in a geographical goldmine not dominated by a top 5 program, 200k in RTC donations (not including fundraising so your volunteer assistant makes more than 25k) and scheduling that stinks because they are in a lousy program and that coaches make their own schedules and not AD's outside of the Big 10.

Before anyone mentions South Dakota State, remove Gross who is the 133lb starter for Iowa and then talk.

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Wyoming

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Look, the argument to have 76 or 80 or 100+ D1 programs is only based on the fantasy that the bottom 60 programs actually one day have a chance to become competitive.

 

Reality. They don't. There isn't a magical unicorned coach that can walk into any 40th ranked program and get them to 9.9 scholarships, 10+ new financial aid allotments annually, redshirt, greyshirt or deferred enrollment options, cheap dorms and food services for camps in a geographical goldmine not dominated by a top 5 program, 200k in RTC donations (not including fundraising so your volunteer assistant makes more than 25k) and scheduling that stinks because they are in a lousy program and that coaches make their own schedules and not AD's outside of the Big 10.

 

Before anyone mentions South Dakota State, remove Gross who is the 133lb starter for Iowa and then talk.

 

 

 

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Why would you not count Seth Gross?

 

Why would competing in your conference and then being 50th at NCAAs be so bad you should be removed from the league?

 

If only 25 can compete so you should limit to 25, then what should you do with bottom 60 of D2 once you create the new D2?  

 

Should you just create 10 divisions for teams to get trophies?  Or should you just cancel all college wrestling that can't win their division?

 

Basically what does competing for an NCAA title have to do with existing as a program?

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Lots of ad hominem attacks, but zero solutions. Anyone care to share how increasing the number of programs in the country in Division 1 helps wrestling?

More D1 programs gives more opportunities to student athletes who want to wrestle in college.

More opportunities to wrestle in college encourages more high school athletes to stick with the sport.

More kids wrestling at the high school level encourages more middle school kids to wrestle.

More kids wrestling at the middle school level encourages more youth level kids to wrestle.

More kids at the youth level interested in wrestling encourages schools to add middle school and high school teams.

More people wrestling encourages more weight classes.

More weight classes encourages more weight classes at the world and Olympic level.

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Too Many D1 Programs = Having Too Much Money = Being in Too Good of Shape = Having a Girlfriend that is Too Hot

 

I'm not saying there aren't problems associated with each an every one of the above - there absolutely are problems with every one of them. But I think most of us could agree that we'd rather have any of them than have the opposite.

 

Although I don't know if we can accurately quantify exactly how much MORE = BETTER for wrestling, I think we can make a convincing argument that LESS = WORSE for wrestling.

 

Count me in for the group that believes MORE wrestling is better than LESS.

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Lots of ad hominem attacks, but zero solutions. Anyone care to share how increasing the number of programs in the country in Division 1 helps wrestling?

Come up with an idea that has merit and I bet people will discuss the merits.  

 

But come up with something this dumb and people will just punch holes in the 'idea'.

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i like this take. but on the same level. I only watch the CWS, NCAA bball tournament...sometimes, world series

I dont watch much reg season stuff.

football and wrestling, i watch as much as i can. but there isn't much wrestling on. BiG network doesn't even cover as much as they used to. as i feared, they have begun to show much more bball and fball 

I go to as many home husker events as possible... but during high school season that can be hard.(its an hour drive and then thats after practice, and many times on a school night. on saturdays...well i just spent my day at a hs tourney)

 

but why dont we have an NIT in wrestling. that would be kind of cool. or even have a redshirt national tourney.

 

i disagree about the tourneys during the season that you speak of.  I really dont think there are very many.

 

many people on the International forum were complaining about having 3 sites and so not everyone is there.  wrestling season shuts down in jan and feb during the DUAL season.  only the top squads draw. if there were more tourney's, there would be more top wrestlers in one location and potentially draw more fans...

this might also get more unknown wrestlers some exposure and help bring up the level of those wrestlers...

"I go to as many home husker events as possible... but during high school season that can be hard.(its an hour drive and then thats after practice, and many times on a school night. on saturdays...well i just spent my day at a hs tourney)" - You hit the nail on the head without even realizing it on one of the biggest problems we have in wrestling. Nearly all of us are involved fans. What I mean by that is that we're wrestlers, coaches, referees, ect.  We don't have time to go to a college dual meet because we're coaching a high school dual meet. Can't go to the MSU open on Saturday, because son, sons or nephew is wrestling in a local high school tournament. I'm not degrading or downplaying that, but Jesus, do we have any "just fans" of the sport? I've been involved in wrestling since 1991. 27 years, and of all people I know that watch and follow the sport, I can think of a single person who doesn't have an immediate connection.  Everyone else wrestled themselves, had a dad or a brother or friend or a cousin or son, and anymore daughter.  I know plenty of football fans that never stepped foot on the gridirion. Dad never played either.  Neither do their brothers.  Football has plenty of "just fans." So does basketball. So does baseball.  Wrestling doesn't and we can argue the semantics of it, but I believe and I'm sticking to that wrestling itself as in the people in it are partially to blame for that. I love wrestling way too much to ever let anyone make me hate it, but as passionate and knowledgeable as I am about the sport, I sure as Hell have had people try.  I don't want to go off on a tangent but I've seen the way wrestling people react to non-coaches, non-wrestlers, non-son/dad/daughter/cousin/best friend wrestled individuals who try and enjoy the sport and I'm not the least bit surprised when those individuals decide right then and right there that the particular dual they're watching will be the last one they ever watch. 

 

Secondly I'm not sure how many more tournaments you are wanting.  Perhaps you're wanting more/better coverage of these tournaments?  Cliff Keen Las Vegas was the toughest it has been in many years. 25 All Americans competed in this year's championships and Montorie Bridges of Wyoming who placed eighth at the NCAA's failed to place.  I think that in itself gives enough testimony to how good this year's CKLV was. 

 

Granted Midlands isn't as tough as it once was and I too am disappointed that we no longer see post-graduates competing in the tournament, but it still had 18 wrestlers who would go on to gain All American honors competing in the tournament. 

 

Southern Scuffle had 14 and RENO had 9. 

 

Maybe you're wanting more out of the smaller tournaments? All the opens like Princeton, Harold Nichols, Michigan State, Wyoming, Daktronics, Clarion, NDSU, Binghamton, Journeyman, Lindenwood, Navy, NC State, Keystone, Army, Bakersfield, and Mat Town.   Am I missing any? Trust me there are plenty of early season tournaments, and while they're not the NCAA's, you can find some quality wrestling at nearly all of them. 

 

Maybe we'd be better off if things were more spread out?  I agree with you that it does seem like the dual part of the season goes on forever.  It's strange to me that once Midlands/Scuffle is over at the first of January, we don't see another tournament until conference comes around Mid-March. 

 

I wonder though if this had to do with health?  Recovering from a single match in a dual is easier physically and mentally than it is a series of matches after a two day tournament or even a single day tournament.  

 

Maybe schedule so of the tournaments I posted above for late January instead? 

 

Idk, thinking out loud. 

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More D1 programs gives more opportunities to student athletes who want to wrestle in college.

More opportunities to wrestle in college encourages more high school athletes to stick with the sport.

More kids wrestling at the high school level encourages more middle school kids to wrestle.

More kids wrestling at the middle school level encourages more youth level kids to wrestle.

More kids at the youth level interested in wrestling encourages schools to add middle school and high school teams.

More people wrestling encourages more weight classes.

More weight classes encourages more weight classes at the world and Olympic level.

 

Let me get this straight, only D1 wrestling offers opportunities for young men who want to wrestle? That is one seriously specious argument.

 

Quick question: how many collegiate men's wrestling programs existed in 2017-18?

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Come up with an idea that has merit and I bet people will discuss the merits.  

 

But come up with something this dumb and people will just punch holes in the 'idea'.

 

I did a few times in this thread alone. You, on the other hand, want to make it personal and have provided nothing in return but personal attacks. You're arguing from the heart, not the head.

 

Groupthink is not only unproductive, but it is dangerous, boys.

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I did a few times in this thread alone. You, on the other hand, want to make it personal and have provided nothing in return but personal attacks. You're arguing from the heart, not the head.

 

Groupthink is not only unproductive, but it is dangerous, boys.

I've given you plenty of reasons why your idea is absurd.  I've made nothing close to a personal attack.  I have said your idea is dumb.  You have an idea that solves a problem that doesn't need to solved (the bottom of D1 doesn't compete for titles).  But it creates new problems (what to do once those 60 teams move down and D2 now has the same bottom, and so on and so on).  I pointed out that every school gets to be competitive in their conference even if they are not competitive on the National scene. 

 

I have given you plenty of answers for why it's a terrible idea. 

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Let me get this straight, only D1 wrestling offers opportunities for young men who want to wrestle? That is one seriously specious argument.

 

Quick question: how many collegiate men's wrestling programs existed in 2017-18?

 

 

Please tell me where I said ONLY D1 wrestling offers opportunities for young men who want to wrestle? 

 

I said MORE D1 Wrestlings offers MORE opportunities.

 

BIG BIG DIFFERENCE

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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