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Tofurky

Too Many D1 Programs?

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What if we... I don't know... increased the number of high-quality wrestlers coming out of high school?  Or is that just crazy?

 

On a totally unrelated note, I'm kind of short on money this summer.  Wondering how to pay for camps, vacations, and such.  I was thinking maybe I'd look for a way to make extra money, but... nah.  I'll just put my kids up for adoption.

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I think Tofurky has a point, but not for what reasons have been addressed so far.  I was a college coach for a very good NAIA team, and we often competed against NCAA schools that were very bad.  This creates a big problem for wrestling.  For admin, fan base, recruiting, and just overall presentation, teams that cannot be competitive looks really, really bad for the sport.  It makes it appear that a team that cannot win is a total joke, and probably shouldnt be around.  This happens for long enough, it is proven, those teams get cut and they dont come back.

 

Im seeing DI teams that dont get a single All American for 25 years.  Im seeing DI teams send 5 guys to a big tournament.  Im seeing forfeits in DI matches where both schools are less than a few hours apart.

 

My solution would be this:  Limit the number of DI teams, but increase the opportunity at the other levels.  You dont lose participation, you actually gain.  Wrestlers will keep going if they think they can be competitive.  The average JUCO kid, if you told him, its either pay your own way at a DI school or quit, they quit.  Let some of the basement teams move down.  Now, let the finalists of D2, D3, and NAIA qualify for NCAA DI championships.  Now, teams will be more competitive without actually losing the ability to win DI.  Like the poster above me has stated before, for a lot of guys, wrestling is about ME, not the team.  The team is an added bonus, but guys mainly leave HS thinking "Im going to be an NCAA champ" much more than "I want my new team to win NCAAs". 

 

Letting guys compete in a more team competitive atmosphere where wrestling is attractive and exciting and limiting blow outs with the ability for the individual to meet their goals seems to me would produce a much more visually appealing and fan friendly version of wrestling than watching Indiana take on Penn State.

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Come up with an idea that has merit and I bet people will discuss the merits.  

 

But come up with something this dumb and people will just punch holes in the 'idea'.

some of the best ideas ever still had people punching them

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Maybe we'd be better off if things were more spread out?  I agree with you that it does seem like the dual part of the season goes on forever.  It's strange to me that once Midlands/Scuffle is over at the first of January, we don't see another tournament until conference comes around Mid-March. 

 

 

this is more what im talking about... there aren't any tourneys from early january until march... just duals...

and there aren't enough duals... its not like bball where they play 2 maybe 3 times a week.

 

and so you dont get that accumulation of great matches. dont get me wrong, i love BiG's wrestling in 60...

 

how often do you get the meredith/gross matchup

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I've given you plenty of reasons why your idea is absurd.  I've made nothing close to a personal attack.  I have said your idea is dumb.  You have an idea that solves a problem that doesn't need to solved (the bottom of D1 doesn't compete for titles).  But it creates new problems (what to do once those 60 teams move down and D2 now has the same bottom, and so on and so on).  I pointed out that every school gets to be competitive in their conference even if they are not competitive on the National scene. 

 

I have given you plenty of answers for why it's a terrible idea. 

there are only 61 d2 schools now... 60 more would add some depth 

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What if we... I don't know... increased the number of high-quality wrestlers coming out of high school?  Or is that just crazy?

 

On a totally unrelated note, I'm kind of short on money this summer.  Wondering how to pay for camps, vacations, and such.  I was thinking maybe I'd look for a way to make extra money, but... nah.  I'll just put my kids up for adoption.

NAIL

HIT

BINGO

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not sure what you mean by this... 3 teams won over the last 9 years.

or are you talking individual titles? 

 

Talking Team Titles. NCAA D1 wrestling has had more varied teams win the NCAA Championship over the past  9 years - the time Cael Sanderson has been Head Coach at Penn State than than D1 teams have with NCAA Football Championships - last 9 or even all time.

 

Very simple, really.

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Let me get this straight, only D1 wrestling offers opportunities for young men who want to wrestle? That is one seriously specious argument.

 

Quick question: how many collegiate men's wrestling programs existed in 2017-18?

 

It is the difference in racing the local Dirt Track and NASCAR.

 

We'll save Formula 1 for International Freestyle.

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Talking Team Titles. NCAA D1 wrestling has had more varied teams win the NCAA Championship over the past  9 years - the time Cael Sanderson has been Head Coach at Penn State than than D1 teams have with NCAA Football Championships - last 9 or even all time.

 

Very simple, really.

what are you talking... all time...

more than 3 teams have won championships in football all time.

2016                                                 CLemson

2015 Alabama CFP 2014 Ohio State CFP 2013 Florida State

BCS

 

 

so all time... no.

not even more in the last nine years

Edited by GockeS

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doesn't men's gymnastics have like half that number of D1 programs? they still have a championship I thought. I assume there are other sports below that number too.

Not even half; there are 16 men's gymnastics programs in the NCAA altogether.

 

Here's a source for the 50 figure; the text is:

18.2.4 Minimum Sponsorship for Championships.

 

18.2.4.1 Men’s Sports. A National Collegiate Championship or a division championship may be established in a men’s sport if at least 50 institutions sponsor the sport. (Adopted: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, Revised: 1/17/09)

 

18.2.4.2 Women’s Sports. A National Collegiate Championship or a division championship may be established in a women’s sport if at least 40 institutions sponsor the sport. (Adopted: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, Revised: 4/22/98 effective 8/1/98, 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02, 1/17/09)

 

I don't want to overstate what I know, here.  Men's Gymnastics does have a championship, and it appears to be for all divisions (15 of the 16 are DI). I've gathered, in conversation, that falling below 50 would be a Very Bad Thingtm for us, but I wasn't particularly thorough about finding out what would happen.

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Not even half; there are href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men" s_gymnastics_championships"="">16 men's gymnastics programs in the NCAA altogether.

 

Here's a source for the 50 figure; the text is:

 

I don't want to overstate what I know, here.  Men's Gymnastics does have a championship, and it appears to be for all divisions (15 of the 16 are DI). I've gathered, in conversation, that falling below 50 would be a Very Bad Thingtm for us, but I wasn't particularly thorough about finding out what would happen.

interesting, thanks, I was unaware of that rule.

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What if we... I don't know... increased the number of high-quality wrestlers coming out of high school?  Or is that just crazy?

 

On a totally unrelated note, I'm kind of short on money this summer.  Wondering how to pay for camps, vacations, and such.  I was thinking maybe I'd look for a way to make extra money, but... nah.  I'll just put my kids up for adoption.

 

If only life were as easy as your first paragraph.

 

That said, Ray, your second paragraph isn't lost on me in direct relation to this topic. One thing you do not do is have more children.

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Not even half; there are href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men" s_gymnastics_championships"="">16 men's gymnastics programs in the NCAA altogether.

 

Here's a source for the 50 figure; the text is:

 

I don't want to overstate what I know, here.  Men's Gymnastics does have a championship, and it appears to be for all divisions (15 of the 16 are DI). I've gathered, in conversation, that falling below 50 would be a Very Bad Thingtm for us, but I wasn't particularly thorough about finding out what would happen.

 

Gymnastics is exempt from the 50 program minimum rule. Wrestling probably would be too. Someone explained the details on here or on a radio show/podcast long ago...  right after the NCAA created the minimum sponsorship for championships rule (the original rule back then called for a minimum of around 35 or 40 programs and men's gymnastics was already below that number), USA Gymnastics partnered with the USOC and established a slush fund to lobby the NCAA and University Presidents & Chancellors. They were able to get an "Olympic Exemption" statute passed so that men's gymnastics could have a national championship without the minimum # of teams.

 

Unless someone got very nitpicky about the differences between folkstyle and FS/GR, wrestling could probably obtain the same Olympic Exemption to preserve the NCAA D1 Championships. The weird thing about the exemption rule is that most NCAA sports are also Olympic sports except for what, football and baseball?  And those sports aren't in any danger.

 

Also just based off of speculation, I think having championship tournament sponsors has helped to keep the men's gymnastics championships (and the sport) alive. Granted, it's shared with the women's sport and some may loathe seeing a "2019 Unilever D1 National Collegiate Wrestling Championships, presented by Infiniti" banner but if it can pump money back into expanding D1 programs and scholarships, that might be a good thing.

Edited by pamela

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We need more D 1 programs

 

What does more Division 1 opportunity accomplish that can't be accomplished by schools in Division 2, Division 3, NAIA, NJCAA and NCWA? Is there enough Division 1 talent graduating from high school every year to necessitate this growth? The non-D1 levels WANT wrestling and are creating more opportunity annually than D1 schools have committed to in the last decade.

 

Here is a list (data taken from Trackwrestling) showing how many colleges competed at the D1 Championships, how many scored one team point or less and how many scored zero team points or less.

 

2018 - 72 teams competed - 17 teams scored one team point or less (24% of the field) - 8 teams scored zero points or less (11%)

2017 - 69 teams competed - 13 teams scored one team point or less (19% of the field) - 4 teams scored zero points or less (6%)

2016 - 72 teams competed -   9 teams scored one team point or less (13% of the field) - 4 teams scored zero points or less (6%)

2015 - 69 teams competed - 12 teams scored one team point or less (17% of the field) - 3 teams scored zero points or less (4%)

2014 - 72 teams competed - 10 teams scored one team point or less (14% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

2013 - 72 teams competed - 13 teams scored one team point or less (18% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

2012 - 70 teams competed - 12 teams scored one team point or less (17% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

 

This data might lead one to believe that there isn't enough talent coming out of high school to support the number of Division 1 programs that currently exist, let alone creating more of them that will only add to the numbers above.

 

Instead of adding more teams to D1 at this point, why not focus on improving the numbers above first? Financially support the programs that need it most, which are usually among this group consistently, and will be most in danger of being cut in the future. All of this can do this WHILE growing the numbers of teams in college wrestling, just at levels outside of D1, where most wrestlers exist.

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Thanks, Pamela.  I figured it was something like that, but getting someone to step up with facts is better than offering speculation.

 

Yes, I think this sort of thing happens seldom enough that it's less a matter of the NCAA following a policy, and more a matter of their asking, "Well, what do we do about this?"  I would expect they'd want to preserve the championship tournament, as it makes money.

 

I am, however, very reluctant to test the waters on things like this.  We aren't universally popular in the NCAA, and to a lot of people, we represent atavistic violence and "poisonous masculinity".  Those who aren't against us tend not to be especially for us, and I think it pays to be conservative in such an environment.

 

At one point, I asked a fellow who had been in some fairly high-level NCAA committees why we had 9.9 scholarships when we have 10 weights.  Turns out, we'd had 11, and the schools agreed to a 10% across-the-board reduction in small-sport scholarship caps.  "Okay," I said, "but really... 9.9?  We couldn't just get 10?"  "Go ahead and ask for it," I was told (rhetorically; I wasn't in a position to ask).  "Next thing you know, we'll have 9."

 

That's my basic view of how our fortunes tend when things change.  So yeah, I don't think it would be the end of all things, but I'd be surprised if we came out of the deal without losing anything important (aside from the programs themselves).

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What does more Division 1 opportunity accomplish that can't be accomplished by schools in Division 2, Division 3, NAIA, NJCAA and NCWA? Is there enough Division 1 talent graduating from high school every year to necessitate this growth? The non-D1 levels WANT wrestling and are creating more opportunity annually than D1 schools have committed to in the last decade.

 

Here is a list (data taken from Trackwrestling) showing how many colleges competed at the D1 Championships, how many scored one team point or less and how many scored zero team points or less.

 

2018 - 72 teams competed - 17 teams scored one team point or less (24% of the field) - 8 teams scored zero points or less (11%)

2017 - 69 teams competed - 13 teams scored one team point or less (19% of the field) - 4 teams scored zero points or less (6%)

2016 - 72 teams competed -   9 teams scored one team point or less (13% of the field) - 4 teams scored zero points or less (6%)

2015 - 69 teams competed - 12 teams scored one team point or less (17% of the field) - 3 teams scored zero points or less (4%)

2014 - 72 teams competed - 10 teams scored one team point or less (14% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

2013 - 72 teams competed - 13 teams scored one team point or less (18% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

2012 - 70 teams competed - 12 teams scored one team point or less (17% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

 

This data might lead one to believe that there isn't enough talent coming out of high school to support the number of Division 1 programs that currently exist, let alone creating more of them that will only add to the numbers above.

How does the statement 'we need more D1 programs' mean we don't need more programs at other levels to you?  

 

How does the bottom 10 teams out of 70 being bottom 10 out 70 mean there aren't enough D1 kids?  If every kid in the country is 'D1' quality you are still going to have 10 schools on the bottom not scoring when you go 70 schools deep.  250+ schools miss the NCAA basketball tournament every year whether there are 100 'D1' quality kids or 10,000 'D1' quality kids.  Results are zero sum.  For 60 teams to make the top 60, 10 have to be in the bottom 10.  The only way to avoid this is to have enough divisions to have nobody outside of the top 50.  You'd need like D6 to make that happen. 

 

Instead of adding more teams to D1 at this point, why not focus on improving the numbers above first? Financially support the programs that need it most, which are usually among this group consistently, and will be most in danger of being cut in the future. All of this can do this WHILE growing the numbers of teams in college wrestling, just at levels outside of D1, where most wrestlers exist.

 

 

Is there a group raising money and spending it to start new D1 programs?  I guess I hear people say we should have more D1 programs, but you are arguing against people spending money and effort on adding D1 programs when those people don't exist.  You are tilting at windmills here.  Nothing is being spent on new programs at the expense of existing programs because nothing is being spent on new programs period.  

 

You clearly have some issue with the amount of attention paid to D1 and the lack of attention paid to D2, D3, and NAIA.  Out of that issue you have created some strange desire to move teams down a division even though it doesn't address or help any of the things you are addressing.  I am guessing you wrestled or coached at one of those levels and somehow grew to resent D1 wrestling.  I myself wrestled in the NWCA and loved it.  Nobody cared about my matches or supported us, but that wasn't because Drexel should be in D2.  

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If only life were as easy as your first paragraph.

 

Making good wrestlers isn't rocket science.  If we need more, we can make more.  Who's working on the problem, though?

 

I wrote a much longer response, but I'm going to sit on it for now.  In essence:  creating good wrestlers is an easy project, if you want to do it as a program.  It's just time-consuming, and requires expertise; thus, it's expensive.

 

If you expect the grass roots system to do it, you need to manipulate the economic forces to get different results.

 

Nobody is doing either of these things with the purpose of increasing the supply of good wrestlers to our college ranks.

 

Reducing the demand for high-quality wrestlers, by eliminating programs, probably isn't a good idea.  If it had any effect, it would probably lower production.  That would lead to the same conclusion again:  eliminate more programs, because there aren't enough good wrestlers to fill them.

 

I realize that's far from a air-tight argument, but it's a lot more succinct than a better one.

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2018 - 72 teams competed - 17 teams scored one team point or less (24% of the field) - 8 teams scored zero points or less (11%)

2017 - 69 teams competed - 13 teams scored one team point or less (19% of the field) - 4 teams scored zero points or less (6%)

2016 - 72 teams competed -   9 teams scored one team point or less (13% of the field) - 4 teams scored zero points or less (6%)

2015 - 69 teams competed - 12 teams scored one team point or less (17% of the field) - 3 teams scored zero points or less (4%)

2014 - 72 teams competed - 10 teams scored one team point or less (14% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

2013 - 72 teams competed - 13 teams scored one team point or less (18% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

2012 - 70 teams competed - 12 teams scored one team point or less (17% of the field) - 7 teams scored zero points or less (10%)

 

This data might lead one to believe that there isn't enough talent coming out of high school to support the number of Division 1 programs that currently exist, let alone creating more of them that will only add to the numbers above.

 

so if the ncaa field expensed to a 64 man bracket and more teams earned points you'd think we'd have more talent in the D1 field than we do know, even if we added no scholarships or teams or roster spots?

 

man this thread is just the absolute dumbest. it should be locked down nuked from orbit. a real horrorshow of stupidity and ignorance. 

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