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Angry_Fish

Grand Prix of Spain and Dogu

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Stieber being One and Done is wrong on all levels.

With seeding now part of tournaments it is time to move to a real Double Elimination format. This "if my guy wins I move forward" is dumber than melted ice cubes.

 

A double elimination format would push to True third place and others would know their placing as they wrestled more matches. Would make seeding easier with actual placing for ranking each season. Add in all the travel and each wrestler guaranteed two matches at the minimum and you help teams.

In regards to Steiber are you saying 1 world title and done or 1 match at this tournament and done.

 

We are the only country that wrestles the consis side that way, I prefer it, but I am also used to it. I feel like it would go over with other countries about as well as asking them to wrestle folkstyle. "If you lost to somebody who can't make the finals you dont deserve a medal" sounds reasonable. (But obviously not always true)

 

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The whole system is flawed. The rest of the world does it so it must be better? The "rest of the world" also lives in relative poverty compared to the USA. The argument is flawed beyond talking any further.

 

Heres a better argument. Suppose Stieber wrestles the guy who is the eventual bronze medalist at the WC. I enter the tourney as a 40 year old rep from Bafoonistan. I wrestle the eventual gold medalist first round, and am teched in 30 seconds. I have zero business being on the mat at the WC, but yet, I'm pulled into repechage. Technically, I place higher than Stieber.

 

Makes zero sense.

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The whole system is flawed. The rest of the world does it so it must be better? The "rest of the world" also lives in relative poverty compared to the USA. The argument is flawed beyond talking any further.

 

Heres a better argument. Suppose Stieber wrestles the guy who is the eventual bronze medalist at the WC. I enter the tourney as a 40 year old rep from Bafoonistan. I wrestle the eventual gold medalist first round, and am teched in 30 seconds. I have zero business being on the mat at the WC, but yet, I'm pulled into repechage. Technically, I place higher than Stieber.

 

Makes zero sense.

Haha did I say because the rest of the world does it, it is correct or did I say, I prefer the American way because I'm used to it, but since the rest of the world does it, it would be like changing everything they know, aka wrestling folkstyle instead of free.

I'm not debating bronze medals hold little weight when youre comparing wrestlers because maybe one just lost to the wrong guy that day.... but again we dont control the world, but I do agree some of the impoverished countries should try living wealthy for a bit, its much nicer.

 

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In regards to Steiber are you saying 1 world title and done or 1 match at this tournament and done.

 

We are the only country that wrestles the consis side that way, I prefer it, but I am also used to it. I feel like it would go over with other countries about as well as asking them to wrestle folkstyle. "If you lost to somebody who can't make the finals you dont deserve a medal" sounds reasonable. (But obviously not always true)

 

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i agree to a point. but matchups make some results possibly different

a beats c, c beats b, b beats a

 

also, we used to use that system but thought better of it

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i agree to a point. but matchups make some results possibly different

a beats c, c beats b, b beats a

 

also, we used to use that system but thought better of it

I mean Euros is a solid example. Chamizo beats Tsabolov, Chamizo loses to Demirtas, Tsabolov gets a DNP next to his name just because... those were easily the top 3 in the weight and one wont get recognized as having placed.

Put it on the world stage and it's even more tragic.

 

I don't defend the logic of it or anything else, I understand the "idea" behind it, and recognize the entire world uses it outside of the US, since that is the case it seems unlikely we will be able to change everyone elses mind anytime soon, is all I'm saying .

 

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Edited by spladle08

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anyone else notice who stupid the challenge was at the beginning? I don't know if I would want Zadick in my corner....

Manning is the one who threw the brick. he was the only one in Burroughs's corner. Zadick was there but hanging back. Wasn't his call. 

 

but I agree that challenge should never have been made. the risk of losing future challenges makes it worth way less than you're risking. 

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regarding Chamizo v Burroughs, I think Burroughs is the better wrestler and that this loss will help him. Chamizo is all defense and counters. Burroughs is still going to have a hard time finishing his shots cleaning (as will all wrestlers) but he's going to get better at stopping Frank's counters. Meanwhile, Jordan will continue to get to Chamizo's legs, whereas Frank's offense was basically nonexistent. Plus he stalled his butt off. I tend to favor the wrestler who can score offense and doesn't have to stall to win and that remains the case here. 

 

Chamizo is still one of the most exciting and talented wrestlers in the world (despite the blatant stalling) and I remain a big fan of his. also who knows, maybe he finds some decent attacks that will work on Burroughs between now and October. I just wouldn't bet on it. 

 

Also not sweating Snyder's loss in the slightest. he's not the prohibitive favorite to win gold in Budapest but neither was he even the favorite to win the last three years. Snyder is all about wrestling and learning, win or lose. Alborov had a hell of a tournament but right now he's 2-2 against Snyder, with Snyder winning the most important match of the series 9-2, by the largest margin of any of the matches. I got my money on Snyder if they meet in Budapest. 

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regarding Chamizo v Burroughs, I think Burroughs is the better wrestler and that this loss will help him. Chamizo is all defense and counters. Burroughs is still going to have a hard time finishing his shots cleaning (as will all wrestlers) but he's going to get better at stopping Frank's counters. Meanwhile, Jordan will continue to get to Chamizo's legs, whereas Frank's offense was basically nonexistent. Plus he stalled his butt off. I tend to favor the wrestler who can score offense and doesn't have to stall to win and that remains the case here. 

 

Chamizo is still one of the most exciting and talented wrestlers in the world (despite the blatant stalling) and I remain a big fan of his. also who knows, maybe he finds some decent attacks that will work on Burroughs between now and October. I just wouldn't bet on it. 

 

Also not sweating Snyder's loss in the slightest. he's not the prohibitive favorite to win gold in Budapest but neither was he even the favorite to win the last three years. Snyder is all about wrestling and learning, win or lose. Alborov had a hell of a tournament but right now he's 2-2 against Snyder, with Snyder winning the most important match of the series 9-2, by the largest margin of any of the matches. I got my money on Snyder if they meet in Budapest. 

As far as offensive attacks go, are we discounting how effective Chamizo's offense was. He is a brilliant counter wrestler, but the High C at 8-8 and the sweep single  earlier, were perfect.

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nope, wasn't Tanelli either. just rewatched the video. pretty sure it was Frank's Dagestani's coach, but not totally positive. 

i just thought he looked familiar. like someone I remember seeing in the collegiate ranks.

 

dont tell me all wrestlers look alike! ;-)

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regarding Chamizo v Burroughs, I think Burroughs is the better wrestler and that this loss will help him. Chamizo is all defense and counters. Burroughs is still going to have a hard time finishing his shots cleaning (as will all wrestlers) but he's going to get better at stopping Frank's counters. Meanwhile, Jordan will continue to get to Chamizo's legs, whereas Frank's offense was basically nonexistent. Plus he stalled his butt off. I tend to favor the wrestler who can score offense and doesn't have to stall to win and that remains the case here. 

 

Chamizo's strength is obviously the counter, but I disagree that his offense was nonexistent in this match.  He picked his spots, but when he attacked he scored.  

 

He also has very little incentive to change his approach with regard to sitting on the counter.  Even if he sits back and Burroughs controls center for a large portion of the match, he probably only gets put on the shot clock once, which I don't think he minds in the slightest.  

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I think that analysis is a little off.

 

His defense didn't technically hold up that well, he scored 6 of his 10 points on immediately after Burroughs had scored and had points confirmed...so I would call it hustle as opposed to defense. If Burroughs doesn't relax for a millisecond after his scores it's a way different match. 

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Chamizo's strength is obviously the counter, but I disagree that his offense was nonexistent in this match.  He picked his spots, but when he attacked he scored.  

 

He also has very little incentive to change his approach with regard to sitting on the counter.  Even if he sits back and Burroughs controls center for a large portion of the match, he probably only gets put on the shot clock once, which I don't think he minds in the slightest.  

and thats sad.

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i don't think they are supposed to be able to move people around. it is supposed to be a random draw. 

 

once you come up with a reason to 'move guys around' you open the door to all sorts of shadiness. that was the whole point of random draw. also of the rankings events, which are designed as a fair and objective way to create 'seeds'.

Again, this isn't the biggest ax to grind and it's irrelevant to the World and Olympic tournaments, but really want to see some sort of international courtesy rule where all federations get to separate two teammates into the opposite brackets at international tourneys. No harm no foul. True international tournament.

 

Jaroslav, totally get it with the random draw thing - sometimes teammates meet in first round, luck of the draw. Any word with Coach Slay on this issue? Pretty sure he was addressing this with UWW. A Coach Slay interview on this would be really cool, IMO.

 

Even as a Team USA fan, would have loved to see Alborov and Sharipov in opposite brackets at Dogu.

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