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And you may notice they are off for months and months at a time.     A 4 months season and then that's it.    All sorts of limitations against practicing at certain times or in specific groups.   They also have different rules in place than say Canada.   Football is a great example but wrestling is even better since other countries actually compete in wrestling.   

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I don’t know off of the top of my head and won’t be able to look it up for a bit, but I will. In the meantime I’ll throw a few Olympic sports out there where I am guessing we are among the top two or three teams in the world MUCH MORE regularly than wrestling:

 

Basketball

Swimming

Gymnastics

Volleyball

Track and field

 

Like I said I don’t know for sure so I will look it up when I have time later this evening. But you honestly can’t think wrestling is the only sport we are currently top in the world. And you can’t think our one in 22 years ratio is the best among American Olympic sports??

 

 

Basketball is the only one I follow on your list and guess what?    NBA uses different rules than the NCAA and different rules than the world championships/Olympics.         So looks like another vote for practice under one set of rules, win the world championship in a different one.  

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Football players train all year round; yes, there are mandated times when coaches/staff cannot be overseeing their work-outs, but they are constantly training with personal coaches and non-official staff.

 

Right.  But they're not practicing football.  Instead they are practicing all sorts of other things like running, swimming, jumping, etc.   Things that should be detrimental to their football since it isn't NFL rules football.   

 

Do you see how silly that sounds?  That's like saying the freestyle guys practice folk in the off season and it's detrimental since it isn't freestyle.   

 

 

I'm glad you pointed out the obvious.  I usually lay things out so someone comes and in their words spell out how silly things are when we apply the logic being used by the argument.  I thank you for your input. 

 

 

OF COURSE NONE OF THAT HURTS THE NFL GUYS.         

 

WE'RE THE WORLD CHAMPS IN FOLK AND FREE.    WE'RE DOING GREAT WITH OUR SYSTEM.  

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Football players train all year round; yes, there are mandated times when coaches/staff cannot be overseeing their work-outs, but they are constantly training with personal coaches and non-official staff.

 

There careers are getting shorter and shorter by the year and injuries are much worse than they were back in the day. Overtraining. Its an art to get that fine line of out-training your opponent but staying physically, and more importantly mentally fresh.  I believe we overtrain a bit too much. But its hard when you think your opponent might be outworking you. That doesn't sit well with any American I know.  Still, choking and injuries are usually from an overtrained athlete. 

With that being said, your point is legit. I think football players would gladly have a shorter career but one where they still have enough of an edge to make the team. So they train harder than anyone and deal with the repercussions down the road. But those come a lot more to these guys now than they used to. The good news, though, is that medicine does a great job at fixing some injuries that used to end careers. That is a great development. 

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I play a lot of guitar and really beat myself up mentally when I don't get practice in. Definitely from my wrestling work ethic and outlook.  What is funny is sometimes I come back very much improved mentally and come up with new things and have more creativity and more motivation.  I am always surprised at this. Its kinda like weightlifting and breaks. Those breaks are where the gains become real. 

 

All of this is analogous to wrestling. We hate taking breaks, but those breaks often lead to us coming back with a new outlook.  Another thing that is analogous between music like guitar which is pretty athletic and wrestling is that to get better at rock guitar, sometimes playing a few weeks of jazz, blues, or country can really improve me or any other guitarist. I think this is very similar to US wrestlers and freestyle and Greco or beach wrestling.  

Wrestling isn't rocket science. It is all about being in position and maintaining that while taking your opponent off balance and or out of position. In any of the styles.  And Par terre is where the biggest difference is, but now you only get a few moments to get that turn. So I don't see a big deal with wrestling free and folk.  A lot of European wrestlers are wrestling college over hear and going back and taking medals home from the Olympics or World championships. 

 

Edit: just realized this has little to do with Fargo....but I am still posting it because I think its some pretty good points.  

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I don’t know off of the top of my head and won’t be able to look it up for a bit, but I will. In the meantime I’ll throw a few Olympic sports out there where I am guessing we are among the top two or three teams in the world MUCH MORE regularly than wrestling:

 

 

Swimming

 

 

 

 

Swimming is a good one.  Has anyone noticed the greatest Olympic athlete of all time does not focus on a single style of swimming?  You'd think the  greatest Olympian wouldn't commit any of the detrimental mistakes of practicing different styles since they take away from one and other, right?  

 

WRONG

 

The dude wins at all styles, be it 

 

  • Freestyle: 50, 100, 200, 400, 800
  • Backstroke: 100 and 200;
  • Breaststroke: 100 and 200;
  • Butterfly: 100 and 200;
  • etc.

 

He just trains them all, no concern on how negatively they'll impact any of his races.    And low and behold, 22 golds and far and away the greatest Olympian in the history of the Olympics.   

 

But if we train folk, it's a detriment to freestyle.   

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Most of us here wrestled in high school at the very least.  Some had the honor to compete in college.   Others  were blessed as  dual sport varsity  athletes in college.  I fall under that category.  I treasure my letter jacket.     I rarely speak on it as to not toot my own horn, but yes it's true . It's very true.

 

I played the triangle in the band.    I lettered for it and i have enjoyed some of the most memorable times when out there in front of everyone and in command of that iconic instrument.    But did my focus on wrestling stymie  my development in music?   Would I have been a better wrestler or a better command of the  triangle  had I chosen to specialize and not focus on both?    A little known fact is I attended college on a music scholarship.      Yes that's right.   And no amount of wrestling was able to undermine my efforts of my goals.   

 

Perhaps I'm just old school.    Perhaps 

 

Phelps

basketball

NFL

and freestyle world champs are all the outliers and none of them should be beating those who refuse to only specialize.        You guys probably know better than me.  

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Basketball is the only one I follow on your list and guess what? NBA uses different rules than the NCAA and different rules than the world championships/Olympics. So looks like another vote for practice under one set of rules, win the world championship in a different one.

Are you really trying to compare the differences between the NBA/NCAA basketball to that of the differences between NCAA and Olympic wrestling. We’re talking about difference in time periods, couple feet length of a three pointer, etc in basketball. Technique, ways to score, what is worth one point, two points, three points, etc is still exactly the same in ball. Come on Cletus, you can’t be serious thinking that’s a feather in your cap. Be genuine.

Edited by Lurker

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Swimming is a good one. Has anyone noticed the greatest Olympic athlete of all time does not focus on a single style of swimming? You'd think the greatest Olympian wouldn't commit any of the detrimental mistakes of practicing different styles since they take away from one and other, right?

 

WRONG

 

The dude wins at all styles, be it

 

  • Freestyle: 50, 100, 200, 400, 800
  • Backstroke: 100 and 200;
  • Breaststroke: 100 and 200;
  • Butterfly: 100 and 200;
  • etc.

He just trains them all, no concern on how negatively they'll impact any of his races. And low and behold, 22 golds and far and away the greatest Olympian in the history of the Olympics.

 

But if we train folk, it's a detriment to freestyle.

But it’s that way in high school swimming, college swimming, and Olympic swimming. It’s not one way in college swimming, then a totally different way in Olympic swimming. Which is the basis of your argument. So sorry, you gain nothing there.

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But it’s that way in high school swimming, college swimming, and Olympic swimming. It’s not one way in college swimming, then a totally different way in Olympic swimming. Which is the basis of your argument. So sorry, you gain nothing there.

 

 

Perhaps it's that way because it works.      

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Are you really trying to compare the differences between the NBA/NCAA basketball to that of the differences between NCAA and Olympic wrestling. We’re talking about difference in time periods, couple feet length of a three pointer, etc in basketball. Technique, ways to score, what is worth one point, two points, three points, etc is still exactly the same in ball. Come on Cletus, you can’t be serious thinking that’s a feather in your cap. Be genuine.

 

Saying college bball and NBA are the same is like saying folkstyle and freestyle is just handfighting, takedowns and pins under slightly different rules. They're two different games, and it goes beyond the fundamentals. Like you would never see NBA teams run a packline or 2-3 zone as their go-to defensive scheme like you see in college. The helps, the screens, the spacing, the pace between the two force teams to develop strategies and play the game differently.  That's probably why so many college superstars end up being busts in the league, and why average college players like Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Kawhi Leonard, Deandre Jordan and Steph Curry can breakout in the NBA and thrive under a different system and game.

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I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say there. American swimming does the exact same, year round, in high school, college, and Olympic level...is your argument for its better to completely going back and forth and spending more then half the time focusing on something that nobody else in the world focuses on, so it works because we win a total of three world titles in all of modern international wrestling history, one of the last 22 years? Is that your argument.

 

Simply put: international styles have techniques that can literally end a match at the highest level via fall or technical fall but are COMPLETELY illegal in folk style. Your comparisons to international basketball and swimming hold no water to that. If you truly think it does we might as well agree to disagree. It’s kind of like trying to make a deal on buying a car where I’m at $10,000 and your at 100. We’re just too far apart to get anywhere. So we’ll just agree to disagree. I’m comfortable with the fact that we’ve had the folkstyle discipline all along, which is completely different than the international styles, and one out of 22, or 2 out of 23, is not relevant evidence that it’s because of folkstyle we’ve had the success of the past 15 months, but instead it’s the RTC system and getting Olympic Champions who are great coaches on hands with kids more frequently at an earlier age. If you want to stick with it’s because of folkstyle, you’re entitled to that and I wish you well.

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I'm 

 

Are you really trying to compare the differences between the NBA/NCAA basketball to that of the differences between NCAA and Olympic wrestling. We’re talking about difference in time periods, couple feet length of a three pointer, etc in basketball. Technique, ways to score, what is worth one point, two points, three points, etc is still exactly the same in ball. Come on Cletus, you can’t be serious thinking that’s a feather in your cap. Be genuine.

not going to pretend i follow any level or style of basketball close enough to make much of an argument , but I will tell you you've left off a bunch of stuff.   NBA is allowed to travel and carry over.    They ignore it and just allow them to do it. You can't do that (or as much) in the intern ational game, they'll call you on it.    NBA also has their defensive rules, 3 in key and illegal defense.   And I'm sure I'm missing a ton more.  But despite these huge obstacles to over come, USA basketball is the reigning Olympic champs.  I wont pretend to know who is the current world champ unless you want to consider it the NBA's Warriors.   There's an actual world championship outside the NBA is the reason I say I'm not sure who that is. 

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I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say there. American swimming does the exact same, year round, in high school, college, and Olympic level...is your argument for its better to completely going back and forth and spending more then half the time focusing on something that nobody else in the world focuses on, so it works because we win a total of three world titles in all of modern international wrestling history, one of the last 22 years? Is that your argument.

 

Simply put: international styles have techniques that can literally end a match at the highest level via fall or technical fall but are COMPLETELY illegal in folk style. Your comparisons to international basketball and swimming hold no water to that. If you truly think it does we might as well agree to disagree. It’s kind of like trying to make a deal on buying a car where I’m at $10,000 and your at 100. We’re just too far apart to get anywhere. So we’ll just agree to disagree. I’m comfortable with the fact that we’ve had the folkstyle discipline all along, which is completely different than the international styles, and one out of 22, or 2 out of 23, is not relevant evidence that it’s because of folkstyle we’ve had the success of the past 15 months, but instead it’s the RTC system and getting Olympic Champions who are great coaches on hands with kids more frequently at an earlier age. If you want to stick with it’s because of folkstyle, you’re entitled to that and I wish you well.

 

We're not the only ones smart enough to do more than 1 wrestling style.   Russia does a ton of judo and they have other things like Sambo that's very popular.      Japan has sumo.  I can't recall what Iran has, Turkey has their own local style.      But folk is detrimental to free in USA and proof of it is cadets are world silver, juniors are world champs, and seniors are world champs?      Forgive me if I'm just not moved by that argument.   

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Saying college bball and NBA are the same is like saying folkstyle and freestyle is just handfighting, takedowns and pins under slightly different rules. They're two different games, and it goes beyond the fundamentals. Like you would never see NBA teams run a packline or 2-3 zone as their go-to defensive scheme like you see in college. The helps, the screens, the spacing, the pace between the two force teams to develop strategies and play the game differently. That's probably why so many college superstars end up being busts in the league, and why average college players like Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Kawhi Leonard, Deandre Jordan and Steph Curry can breakout in the NBA and thrive under a different system and game.

My point is a free throw is worth one point. A fifteen footer is worth two, and you have to defend that. A three pointer is worth three, whether it be from 21 feet or 23 feet, and you have to defend that. Of course there are differences. But not even close to the difference between having to flatten out and defend a gut wrench or leg lace vs having to work for a stand up or switch while the opponent can’t lock his hands. Or taking a shot not having to worrying about getting rolled vs the roll is okay as long as he doesn’t get around behind and gain control. Or using the out of bounds line while under attack to get out of trouble vs not being able to go out of bounds because you’ll give up a score. The vastness in the differences isn’t even close.

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We're not the only ones smart enough to do more than 1 wrestling style. Russia does a ton of judo and they have other things like Sambo that's very popular. Japan has sumo. I can't recall what Iran has, Turkey has their own local style. But folk is detrimental to free in USA and proof of it is cadets are world silver, juniors are world champs, and seniors are world champs? Forgive me if I'm just not moved by that argument.

Does the Russian national team spend 6-8 months focusing on judo and sambo? I ABSOLUTELY agree cross training is a good thing. But that’s not the debate. You are talking about spending the majority of the year focusing on a different discipline.

Edited by Lurker

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Does the Russian national team spend 6-8 months focusing on judo and sambo? I ABSOLUTELY agree cross training is a good thing. But that’s not the debate. You are talking about spending the majority of the year focusing on a different discipline.

 

I can't possibly tell you what the world freestyle runner ups do in their national program, but it's effective no doubt.     I really have very limited knowledge on it.  I do know they wrestle greco (hey another style!) and they do a free wrestling type of approach to some of their practices.   Beyond that I have no idea.    

 

Look I think you're losing sight of the discussion here.      no one said anything about 8 months of folk.   Lets look at what our team did to get to where they are.   Were they doing 8 months of folk?  If so then yes that appears to be a part of the plan to rise to world #1.   Where can we find this number that you've stated?    

 

To be clear once again, my point is folk is not a detriment to our success and in fact I believe it to be a key factor in allowing our freestylers to grow where they may have been burned out or less sharp were it 13 months per year of only freestyle and no greco, no folk, no judo, etc.  It also helps them not be wimps out there and bullied around by international guys.        I  agree with you (prior to you ever mentioning it  in fact) that the changes USA wrestling has made and other factors like living the dream and the big clubs (Titan Mercury for example) are all part of what has allowed us to get to the  mountain top at all levels.   

 

If you want to insist it's 8 months of folk and we'll never be any good since no one else does folk, go right ahead.    Let me know when you do that and I'll put on last year's world championships in the mean time.  

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Go back to the beginning. You said folk is the reason we were on top this year, one out of 22 years. I said it’s the RTC system and developmental program from USAW that has been put into place relatively recently. I never said folk is the detriment. I just said it’s not THE reason, or anywhere near as contributive as the RTC system. If folk was THE reason, we probably would have won more than once in the last 22 years. That’s my stance. If you disagree, I’m okay with that.

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Post #52 

 

Year round folk??  Oh no!   Now we'll never get good at freestyle on the senior level!

 

Oh wait, we're the world champions in senor, junior, and runner ups in cadet...

 

Post #57

 

That makes sense.    Folk when it's part of the training and not the only training has allowed our freestyle team to rise to #1 in the world at nearly all levels.   And some want to do away with it despite the results.  

 

Post #64

Sure, I'd absolutely agree the #1 reason USA has improved is due to a freestyle focus in training.  I also credit living the dream with our best guys sticking around because they can now afford it.   Clubs also help out.     I also STRONGLY believe the folk season allows eventual world level freestylers  the opportunity to take a break from freestyle while they focus on folk.  The American folk culture then works its magic of building that wrestler into a hard nosed, battle tested, winner.  When freetyle season rolls back around, the wrestler is mentally ready for a change and he gets one.  His freestyle focus is improved and enhanced due to having had little or no freestyle the passed few months.     Remove folk and I would expect the results on the world level in freestyle to dip.   

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Fair enough. Nowhere did I say do away with it. Just don’t believe it is that contributive to results of the past fifteen months as much as the RTC system. I do believe if we wrestled the international styles in schools, we would have those results more often than one out of 22 years, and 3 out of modern history. I do like folk, But thanks to the RTC system, we will see those results more consistently in the future.

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I'm training a group of very talented youth wrestlers (roughly grades 6-10) over the summer.  We meet once a week, giving them time to do other sports.  It is important to keep feeding muscle memory and timing but not at the expense of boring them or burning them out.  So we take the track of the Russians, Swedes, and other Euros I've trained with and come up with this routine until we pick up full-time again in the fall.

2 hour session:

15 minutes warm up outdoors (been nice and warm and beautiful out--absolutely must take advantage of the great weather)

45 minutes drilling outdoors (pummeling, handfighting, legs attacks and ducks with lifts, etc.)

40 minutes indoors on the mats drilling, learning technique, reviewing, minimal live wrestling (10 minutes live max)

15 minutes team sport (speedball, handball, whatever your name for it)

5 minutes warm-down and recap then go the hell home

The only live wrestling we do is situational if we are covering a new technique and they need to begin to develop the feel of the move.  We train techniques that are adaptable to the upcoming folk season but we work in freestyle and greco fundamentals every session.

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I'm training a group of very talented youth wrestlers (roughly grades 6-10) over the summer.  We meet once a week, giving them time to do other sports.  It is important to keep feeding muscle memory and timing but not at the expense of boring them or burning them out.  So we take the track of the Russians, Swedes, and other Euros I've trained with and come up with this routine until we pick up full-time again in the fall.

2 hour session:

15 minutes warm up outdoors (been nice and warm and beautiful out--absolutely must take advantage of the great weather)

45 minutes drilling outdoors (pummeling, handfighting, legs attacks and ducks with lifts, etc.)

40 minutes indoors on the mats drilling, learning technique, reviewing, minimal live wrestling (10 minutes live max)

15 minutes team sport (speedball, handball, whatever your name for it)

5 minutes warm-down and recap then go the hell home

The only live wrestling we do is situational if we are covering a new technique and they need to begin to develop the feel of the move.  We train techniques that are adaptable to the upcoming folk season but we work in freestyle and greco fundamentals every session.

 

I love this coach j. I think the Europeans do a great job of balancing things. Bravo dude!  

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