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Angry_Fish

65KG

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First off, wish I could see Logan's match at Yasar Dogu. He lost 6-4 to a tough wrestler from KAZ who went on to take bronze.

 

Secondly, I'm not writing off Logan's chances this October at Worlds quite yet. No, he is not one of the favorites but Logan can absolutely be a dark horse and a landmine in the 65kg bracket at Budapest. If he has a good day....

 

Lastly, don't forget about the kids, Yianni and Vito in the upcoming years at 65kg.

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That seems to make perfect sense, my only issue with that is why not let JO know that before he accepted his punishment (meaning drop any remaining rights to appeals), etc. I have trouble letting USAW have it both ways...1) It was planned not to have a LC and 2) We only made that decision after JO agreed to his punishment....Maybe it all was an awful coincidence, but IMO, there is enough there to be skeptical..

In response to that I would say (just a guess) that #1 at the time of his suspension the new selection procedures were Still being ironed out. Keep in mind at the time Schultz’ project was still in discussion. And #2, JO’s situation just simply wasn’t factoring into the creation of the process at all, and rightfully so.

 

Also keep in mind, length of suspension and all that is an USADA matter, not USAW.

Edited by Lurker

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In response to that I would say (just a guess) that #1 at the time of his suspension the new selection procedures were Still being ironed out. Keep in mind at the time Schultz’ project was still in discussion. And #2, JO’s situation just simply wasn’t factoring into the creation of the process at all, and rightfully so.

 

You very well may be right.  My opinion is swayed more than yours by USAW's frustration with him not competing overseas more than he did...I suspect I followed that more closely than you... 

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Possibly. I worked out there until the Olympics, not USAW. within the USOC, but talked to those folks, had dinners with some of the admin, staffed at some USAW events. Never got the impression there was any resintment to the level that it would factor at all into the selection process.

Edited by Lurker

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He is a world champion, and that’s something nobody can ever take away from him. I just like to keep perspective and in that case, he won a world championship tournament that didn’t include the very best in the world because they were competing in a tournament he didn’t qualify for.

Well that world championship he won included a win in the finals over Chakaev, who just made the Russian national finals at 65kg. Logan is right there.

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His world Gold, yes.

 

Also has a World Bronze from 3 years earlier.  The year he took Bronze at World's was the year Oliver beat him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magomed_Kurbanaliev

 

Look, I don't know if JO will make the team next year or not.  I think he will, but who knows was ZR will look like when he comes back.  And never count Stieber out....And injuries are always a risk...

But I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that in 2018, JO is the best American at 65KG.  With him at 65 and Stieber at 61, our chances of defending our world team title would be much better.  But it is not to be.  Hopefully we can win the team title anyway -- very possible.

 

And we can agree to disagree, but the fact remains that if USAW wanted to, they could have gotten JO an invite to the trials.  Yes, it would have been unusual (but not unprecedented).  They chose not to do so and IMO it hurts our chances at another team title.  I'm sure JO's reluctance to wrestle overseas very often did not help his chances of USAW bending over backwards to get him an invite.  I've told the guy myself that I think he should compete overseas more often, but it's his life and career.  Travelling overseas sucks, I get it.  But I hope he does more of it soon.  And if I have the chance to tell him that again, I will.

You could bust my chops about being a JO fan all you want, but I obviously don't care.  I've watched the kid wrestle since he was in 9th grade and always felt he had potential to be a world/Olympic champ (or medalist some day).  From my perspective he has 2 (maybe 3) more years to make that dream come true and I will continue to root for him until he leaves his shoes on the mat.  That's nothing to be ashamed of.

Agree wholeheartedly that JO deserved a shot and effectively was given a two year ban. That said, your weight class projections Would seem to indicate that you are missing the huge effect of same day weigh ins. JO was a huge 143 with day before weigh ins and the difference in how much one can cut and recover is probably best estimated at seven lbs. This is why other big 143s like frank the tank and Chamberlain moved up and Zane took the year off. It remains to be seen whether they can be as effective at 143 same day but I believe it may tilt the scales toward Logan and possibly is an outright game changer. Similarly, Logan is not a 134 anymore.

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Agree wholeheartedly that JO deserved a shot and effectively was given a two year ban. That said, your weight class projections Would seem to indicate that you are missing the huge effect of same day weigh ins. JO was a huge 143 with day before weigh ins and the difference in how much one can cut and recover is probably best estimated at seven lbs. This is why other big 143s like frank the tank and Chamberlain moved up and Zane took the year off. It remains to be seen whether they can be as effective at 143 same day but I believe it may tilt the scales toward Logan and possibly is an outright game changer. Similarly, Logan is not a 134 anymore.

I can see him up at 70 if he competes next month, but when it comes to worlds next year, expect him back at 65 unless something changes with 2020 Olympic weights

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I can't stand it any longer. Jordan Oliver may have the most potential of anybody at that weight class but when does potential have to give way to results? How many world teams has he made? Beating foreign wrestlers at Beat the Streets is a far cry from a regular tournament or the world's. The World Cup is only a step above that, imo! And he's now 28 years old. I think his best days are behind him. And thinking that his case was handled differently than anybody else's would have been is for people who wear aluminum foil hats, listen to the Art Bell radio show and bitch about everything under the sun.

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I can't stand it any longer. Jordan Oliver may have the most potential of anybody at that weight class but when does potential have to give way to results? How many world teams has he made? Beating foreign wrestlers at Beat the Streets is a far cry from a regular tournament or the world's. The World Cup is only a step above that, imo! And he's now 28 years old. I think his best days are behind him. And thinking that his case was handled differently than anybody else's would have been is for people who wear aluminum foil hats, listen to the Art Bell radio show and bitch about everything under the sun.

Nice rant. You’re wrong, but nice rant.

 

 

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I can't stand it any longer. Jordan Oliver may have the most potential of anybody at that weight class but when does potential have to give way to results? How many world teams has he made? Beating foreign wrestlers at Beat the Streets is a far cry from a regular tournament or the world's. The World Cup is only a step above that, imo! And he's now 28 years old. I think his best days are behind him. And thinking that his case was handled differently than anybody else's would have been is for people who wear aluminum foil hats, listen to the Art Bell radio show and bitch about everything under the sun.

 

Nailed it. 

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I would think ZR is likely trimming down, that said... did we ever decide where Maple is going? He has a frame that could be at 65..obv he isn't going down for the olympics but was wonder for next years worlds. As far as the fix/Gilman/Lee log jam, watch that interview with Gilam weRE he says "you want to be humbled go wrestle Spencer Lee" I think we may see Gilman put on a little size and bump he's already a massive 57, but there is only 1 more worlds before the olympics (after this one), youd think Lee would want the senior level experience, and I think Gilman would be fine at 61kg even though its not an Olympic weight... man we are going to be tough there....

And I think ZR/JO will be tough. Not saying 50% to medal but Metcalf-esque, enough to make you say "maybe this time"

 

The rest of the weights we will have some killers come 2020.

BURROUGHS

COX

SNYDER

GWIZ

 

I'm already looking forward to these olympics :)

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

I like Snyder and Gwiz chances at making the team.  Burroughs and Cox not so much.   Should be exciting qualifiers no doubt though.  

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I’m on team JO. Think he’s the best we have. But Yianni is coming. Zain or no Zain, I think Yianni is the future of 65 kg if he doesn’t outgrow the weight.

Assuming he can avoid injury, I agree.

 

I hope he trains with Zain at the OTC. I am glad they never wrestled folk. I’d be worried about Yianni’s shoulders.

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I like Snyder and Gwiz chances at making the team. Burroughs and Cox not so much. Should be exciting qualifiers no doubt though.

Are you suggesting Dake drops and beats Burroughs?

 

Cox drops and loses to Taylor?

 

Not disagreeing.

 

I do think Hall and Zahid have a shot at 86 as well. They are super young and have two more years to develop.

 

Nolf has a shot at 74 as well.

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I can see him up at 70 if he competes next month, but when it comes to worlds next year, expect him back at 65 unless something changes with 2020 Olympic weights

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Agreed that he'll go for 143 (65 kg) next year and in 2020, but only because it's the Olympic Weight, I'm just not sure it's an optimal weight class for any of these guys (JO, Molinaro, Zane).  History shows that wrestlers who cut to a sub-optimal weight (such as suddenly dropping to a lower class after competing several years at a higher one) ALWAYS suffer major consequences in performance.  Examples off the top of my head:

 

After being unbeatable in the USA at 152 for years, Lincoln Mac attempted a comeback at 145.5 and was beaten by Bill Zadick and Jamil Kelly, which was unthinkable before it happened.

 

Kyle Snyder- Wrestled 215/220 his entire high school career.  Competes at 197 as a freshman at OSU, looked far worse than he'd ever looked before to the that point or since.  Lost four times including to Nathan Burak.  Moves back up to 97 kg (day before weigh ins) and wins worlds a few months later.

 

Colt Sponseller- Wrestled 165 his entire college career, cuts to 157 his senior year.  Wrestles like complete dog crap. Moves back to 165 and places 3rd at NCAAs behind Burroughs and Howe.  

 

I'd bet that JO and Retherford typically re-hydrate to 155-160 and Molinaro to a full 160.   Not possible with same day weigh ins, they'll have to lose an appreciable amount of muscle mass and it remains to be seen how that will affect them.

 

I'd agree that Yanni is the future here so long as he can hold the weight..... as soon as next year he could be the guy.

Edited by Cradle1

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Was just watching Bekbulatov vs Aliev Euro finals from a few months ago, and even though we discussed this already, wow, Bekbulatov was winning handily 7-2 with 45 seconds left but ended up losing 8-7. Looks like he both, gassed and sat on his lead.

 

Also looks like Aliev is having no problem bumping up to 65kg.

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History shows that wrestlers who cut to a sub-optimal weight (such as suddenly dropping to a lower class after competing several years at a higher one) ALWAYS suffer major consequences in performance.

 

Haji Aliyev was a 2x World Champions at 61kg with like 8-9 tech at Worlds, then dropped to 57kg for the Olympics and got Bronze. I guess they don't ALWAYS suffer major consequences. 

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Haji Aliyev was a 2x World Champions at 61kg with like 8-9 tech at Worlds, then dropped to 57kg for the Olympics and got Bronze. I guess they don't ALWAYS suffer major consequences.

 

Not sure this is the best counter example. He won again last year at 61kg. Meaning the only time he wasn’t the best in the world in the last four years Was when he dropped to an unnatural weight class, even though bronze isn’t a complete collapse it’s still his worst performance.

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