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Best Ever PSU wrestler

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Vinnie Joe is the anomaly.

 

He wouldn't be favored over Zain, Nolf, Taylor, or Ruth (lb for lb adjusted).

 

However he's going to win 4 titles (most likely) and go down as #1 in penn state history.

 

A remarkable big match wrestler.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

He's not a 4 timer yet.

Edited by TobusRex

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I always chuckle a little when people say Zain was beat by a high school kid because while technically true, Pico was no ordinary high school kid and referring to him as such makes it sound like he was...

Plus wasn't Pico 19 or 20 his Sr year in HS?

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Taylor

Zain

Ruth

 

After that, it's murky. When Nolf runs the table next season, I think he'll leap frog at least Ruth in my mind if not more of them. 

 

Depends on how dominant he is. Ruth crushed nearly everybody by bonus points his last 3 years. If Nolf can do that this year he may surpass Ruth on the PSU "glory" list.

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I always chuckle a little when people say Zain was beat by a high school kid because while technically true, Pico was no ordinary high school kid and referring to him as such makes it sound like he was...

As did a certain senior level world champ

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Right now it's Ed Ruth. Next year it will probably be a debate between Nolf, Nickal, and Ruth with Nolf likely getting most of the votes assuming he dominates everyone this year. If Joseph becomes a 4 timer I think you have to give that title to him even though he wasn't as dominate as the others. You just can't count any of the current guys now because nothing is a guarantee and you don't how they will finish. So the correct answer is Ed Ruth.

Disagree on Cenzo.

 

His loss to Marinelli eliminates him

 

Nolf only lost to iMar (assuming he goes undefeated) besides the injury loss

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I always chuckle a little when people say Zain was beat by a high school kid because while technically true, Pico was no ordinary high school kid and referring to him as such makes it sound like he was...

 

That's a good point, Pico was quite the outstanding high schooler.  No question there.   

 

*But Zain got 7 shots at him and got beat every single time. 

 

*And that's despite being older than Pico. 

 

*Being an NCAA champion. 

 

*Being a world team member.   

 

*Being a world champion.   

 

*He managed 1 single take down across 7 losses.   

 

Yes that was a tough high schooler, but tough or not,  he made Zain look down right inept.       

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That's a good point, Pico was quite the outstanding high schooler.  No question there.   

 

*But Zain got 7 shots at him and got beat every single time. 

 

*And that's despite being older than Pico. 

 

*Being an NCAA champion. 

 

*Being a world team member.   

 

*Being a world champion.   

 

*He managed 1 single take down across 7 losses.   

 

Yes that was a tough high schooler, but tough or not,  he made Zain look down right inept.

 

Pico was more than just a tough high schooler. He was an anomaly. By continuing to refer to him as a high schooler you're normalizing who he is/was.

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Pico was more than just a tough high schooler. He was an anomaly. By continuing to refer to him as a high schooler you're normalizing who he is/was.

 

Fair enough, lets forget he was in high school.       Lets forget he was younger (someone made age a point a few posts earlier).   Lets completely disregard he only had a handful of years to get great and then he'd be focused on an entirely different sport.    

 

That dude beat Zain down 7 of 7 times.     I have a hard time seeing Zain as better than Taylor when that is part of Zain's record during his college years.   I don't have a problem with you believing Zain is better, it's just my opinion.  

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Fair enough, lets forget he was in high school. Lets forget he was younger (someone made age a point a few posts earlier). Lets completely disregard he only had a handful of years to get great and then he'd be focused on an entirely different sport.

 

That dude beat Zain down 7 of 7 times. I have a hard time seeing Zain as better than Taylor when that is part of Zain's record during his college years. I don't have a problem with you believing Zain is better, it's just my opinion.

 

Cletus, I NEVER mentioned anything about Taylor, nor did I give any type of opinion on who was better. In fact I've only made 3 posts in this thread 2 of which I'm simply commented on Pico not being "just a high schooler." The other was a joke about how Dake never wins any fantasy matchups. Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Cletus, I NEVER mentioned anything about Taylor, nor did I give any type of opinion on who was better. In fact I've only made 3 posts in this thread 2 of which I'm simply commented on Pico not being "just a high schooler." The other was a joke about how Dake never wins any fantasy matchups.

 

BTFB - my bad.    I skimmed the comments since I had last posted.   I must have confused you with someone else.        Who do you have as better between Zain and Taylor?   Very tough for me to overlook the futility Zain had against the California kid.  

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0-7? Another skunk of a PSU superstar?

 

Yes it's true.   If you weren't following wrestling back then, give the series a google.  It's pretty remarkable to see when you consider Zain's resume and accolades.    It looked like the boy from California just toying with the college super star.      I haven't seen anything like that that I can recall prior or since.  

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You can’t talk about DT without mentioning he lost to one of the very best ever. How that’s even arguable is beyond me. He would’ve easily been the best PSU guy ever if not for Dake, in my opinion.

Precisely. Ed Banach was “only” a 3x champ. But then again he lost to Mark Schultz his junior year in a match that had a few things in common with Taylor/Dake.

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Yep, fish's answer is the EXACT reason I clarified that in my initial post.  I don't care what you did in another style before, after or even when they were enrolled and competing for PSU.  I was strictly speaking folkstyle wresting while attached to PSU.........

 

If "Best Ever" is only comparing statistics/results then results in other styles do not matter. If there is some subjectivity involved in "how good" wrestler X was then results in other styles can be relevant whether you want to arbitrarily dismiss them or not. Again, elite freestyle is not just "another style", it's another style, wrestled at a higher level with better athletes, wrestling with more at stake. This is why the common opinion amongst the elite coaches (Gable, Smith, Brands bros, Cael, JROB) is that Senior level freestyle guys are the best wrestlers in the world, and that winning a World or Olympic Gold is a greater accomplishment than winning an NCAA title. Remember, the NCAA D1 tournament isn't even a true national championship. If there were no eligibility restriction, how many of this year's winners at the NCAA tournament would still be "national champions"? Remember, most don't buy into the "the styles are soooooo completely different that results in one can never be used as a reliable indicator or predictor for what someone is capable of accomplishing in the other" argument. Many, including D1 coaches have been rejecting that argument for decades. It's not uncommon for a D1 coach predict what a wrestler is capable of after watching a HS wrestler compete in freestyle. Fargo results have convinced coaches of what a wrestler will likely do at the D1 folkstyle level. College scholarships have been won and lost at Fargo. You can confirm this with the Flowrestling employees, guys who regularly talk to D1 coaches, on this site.

 

 

Back to the topic: I have Zain Retherford as #1 in the Cael era.

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Disagree on Cenzo.

His loss to Marinelli eliminates him

Nolf only lost to iMar (assuming he goes undefeated) besides the injury loss

That was a mid season match in a dual where he went for a big move to help his team when he could have stalled out for the win. I don't think that should disqualify him if goes undefeated when it matters most and wins 4 NCAA titles.

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That was a mid season match in a dual where he went for a big move to help his team when he could have stalled out for the win. I don't think that should disqualify him if goes undefeated when it matters most and wins 4 NCAA titles.

Agreed. Dake has a Donnie Vinson(I that’s it) loss on his resume and it doesn’t knock his resume at all.

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BTFB - my bad. I skimmed the comments since I had last posted. I must have confused you with someone else. Who do you have as better between Zain and Taylor? Very tough for me to overlook the futility Zain had against the California kid.

 

It's very tough but I think it comes down to who their losses were to.

 

Zain lost twice to Steiber a 4x champ and once to Mitchel Port a 3rd place finisher going 5-1-1-1

Taylor lost twice to Dake a 4x champ, hodge winner and all time great and once to Bubbah Jenkins an NCAA Champ going 2-1-2-1.

 

Imo Dake > Steiber and Jenkins > Port so I would have to give Taylor an ever so slight edge because of who his losses were against, but I do so without much confidence and acknowledge my pick would change depending on what mood I was in.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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This is one of those topics where one's own opinion is all that matters.  No amount of argument from others is going to change that opinion, nor will your arguments sway others to change theirs.  

 

I've been watching PSU more or less since the '60s. I had one brother who was with Lehigh (wrestling behind Caruso) then, so I didn't follow PSU so much, just how they related to the Engineers.  But my other bro gave Matter a battle in a dual and I followed him and became a Lion fan from the 70's on.  

And though there were several great ones before, Caels influence must change all opinions. For artistry, originality, pure offense, and drama, Cael's kids have done it all.  For me to select one as 'the greatest' is no problem.  But in a week my opinion might be different.  I'm a great David Taylor fan.  Ed Ruth threw a cradle and it was lights out. Zain may be the bestest hammer on top ever.  He brings the pain and the points.  Jason Nolf is simply the most creative wrestler I've ever seen.  And if he needs to wrestle on one foot, he can completely change his style to accomplish that.  Been following Joseph since he was a 106 pound 9th grader.  I've always loved his heart, and now it looks like his hips are immovable.  Mark Hall has the best 'feel' for what's happening on the mat of anyone I've ever seen.  Even while losing the finals this year, he had a transcendental scramble with an outstanding Valencia.

And Bo brings high drama and total excitement to the mat. 

 

For me to pick one of them is easy, but I'd pick someone else next week.     Think I'll rotate them by week.

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Agreed. Dake has a Donnie Vinson(I that’s it) loss on his resume and it doesn’t knock his resume at all.

Yup. Dake also lost to Kevin LeValley, but few people even remember that because two weeks later he won NCAAs

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By the eye test, it's a tossup between Taylor, Nolf, and Zane with Nickal and Vincenzo just a half step behind.  I feel like one thing that nobody has mentioned yet is that this seems to be the weakest era of the 149 and 157 lb. class in history. Think of the 149 lb. weight class ten years ago, here's your final top eight:

 

1.Brent Metcalf

2. Bubba Jenkings

3. Jordan Burroughs

4. Josh Churella

5. Darrion Caldwell

6. JP O'Conner

7. Dustin Schlatter

8. Lance Palmer

 

DNP: Ryan Lang (returning NCAA Runner-up).  A total of nine wrestlers who were NCAA Finalists, six  who were NCAA champs, and three world teamers lead by Olympic and Multi world champ Burroughs.  Drop Zane into that era and he very well may have emerged as the best, but he'd have taken some losses, with three straight titles looking almost impossible in my opinion. This is a guy that I've watched Micah Jordan and KeShawn Hayes take down twice in a single match (should be noted that they both got teched late in the third lol), so I'd imagine that Caldwell or Burroughs or a healthy Schlatter could have taken him down a time or two.

Edited by Cradle1

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