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Aviator12

If you are Zahid Valencia....

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Who ever said anything about an unfair advantage? Point that out for us.

It's implied in the 10lbs over weight statement. Same nonsense when Dake wrestled Molinaro except the conjecture was that Dake was around 165 by the time the finals rolled around and poor Frnk was a spot on 149. It's complete bull sh##. There is nothing stopping Mark Hall from putting on weight by Saturday. The fact is that Zahid is just a better wrestler. He should have two NCAA titles by now.

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It's implied in the 10lbs over weight statement. Same nonsense when Dake wrestled Molinaro except the conjecture was that Dake was around 165 by the time the finals rolled around and poor Frnk was a spot on 149. It's complete bull sh##. There is nothing stopping Mark Hall from putting on weight by Saturday. The fact is that Zahid is just a better wrestler. He should have two NCAA titles by now.

I did not imply anything was unfair, what I did was outright state my belief (to which a lot of folks would agree) Zahid was bigger. I favor weigh ins before all sessions, including the finals. Zahid won undet the rules in place, so good for him.

 

Your last line gives your true feelings away. You don't even want to give Hall the championship he won fair and square.

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For the team, him and Norfleet both moving up probably helps. Belshay looked last year like a RS year might help him this year. At 165, does that mean its either Petersen or Ulrey with Anthony sitting out? I would like to see Shields at 157 again until maybe Teemer?? fills the weight next year.

Rumor was Shields May move up to 165. Pagdilo is back too

 

I think it will be

Maruca

Shields

Pagdilo

 

Peterson might sneak in there somewhere

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I did not imply anything was unfair, what I did was outright state my belief (to which a lot of folks would agree) Zahid was bigger. I favor weigh ins before all sessions, including the finals. Zahid won undet the rules in place, so good for him.

 

Your last line gives your true feelings away. You don't even want to give Hall the championship he won fair and square.

Even your rebuttal can't help but imply Zahid won unfairly under unfair rules.  

 

Valencia is the better wrestler.  End of story.  His win over a just as big Dieringer should make that clear.  The guy can do technical things Mark Hall can't.  Hall might be one of the 5 or 10 best in the NCAA but he's behind one of the 2-3 best and it has nothing to do with weight.

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Even your rebuttal can't help but imply Zahid won unfairly under unfair rules.

 

Valencia is the better wrestler. End of story. His win over a just as big Dieringer should make that clear. The guy can do technical things Mark Hall can't. Hall might be one of the 5 or 10 best in the NCAA but he's behind one of the 2-3 best and it has nothing to do with weight.

I don't even believe the rules are unfair, they just are what they are. If they had a 1 or 2 hr weigh in before the finals you don't think this would change some results over time? I think it most definitely would.

 

Hall did what few Americans have done with his freestyle world titles, so he is pretty damn good. Maybe he too would beat Ringer right now.

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Too much correlating freestyle results with folkstyle predictions in this thread.

Well it depends on how the freestyle match went.

 

Zahid won his matches vs Martin and Bo purely from neutral. He completely dominated them on the feet. It is reasonable to assume some of this crosses over. 

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I don't even believe the rules are unfair, they just are what they are. If they had a 1 or 2 hr weigh in before the finals you don't think this would change some results over time? I think it most definitely would.

 

Hall did what few Americans have done with his freestyle world titles, so he is pretty damn good. Maybe he too would beat Ringer right now.

 

I think it's pretty apparent that Mark Hall has the skill set to beat Zahid (again).  I think it's pretty clear that Mark Hall has the skill set to be a Top Freestyler at 74kg or 79kg (86kg may be a bit too big).   I think it's pretty clear that Mark Hall is one of the best wrestlers in NCAA's right now, it's just that Zahid is also in that identical conversation.  They are BOTH highly skilled.  They are BOTH better than the previous generations representatives, at these specific weight ranges, at their respective ages.  

 

We're arguing semantics.  

 

Net/Net;  I agree with Tbar (again).  

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Hall is unquesiionably one of the best but Zahid separated himself. He beat Hall twice and the second time was not close in any way. Since then, he destroyed Dieringer (yes, it was freestyle, but....) and took Dake down cleanly on a close loss. With Snyder now gone, I'd say Zahid is the best NCAA wrestler this year and Hall is in the conversation for top 5.

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I still want Zahid v Bo in NCAA finals, darn it

Me too. Interesting style matchup for sure. Zahid occasionally gets tired and sloppy. Bo punishes people for that. Because takedowns are essentially worth 1 point in free, a 6 (5 really) point move, Bo’s speciality, makes up for their takedown difference.

 

I’d pick Zahid relatively confidently, but Bo has a way to win

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Hall is unquesiionably one of the best but Zahid separated himself. He beat Hall twice and the second time was not close in any way. Since then, he destroyed Dieringer (yes, it was freestyle, but....) and took Dake down cleanly on a close loss. With Snyder now gone, I'd say Zahid is the best NCAA wrestler this year and Hall is in the conversation for top 5.

100%. Valencia is the best wrestler in college right now without a doubt. The loss to Dake should have shown him he needs to work harder and get stronger to finish more of those shots.

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100%. Valencia is the best wrestler in college right now without a doubt. The loss to Dake should have shown him he needs to work harder and get stronger to finish more of those shots.

Maybe best Freestlyer still in college, but Nolf is the best current DI wrestler and I would say that is true by a safe margin. Also, Lee isn't far behind......

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Hall is unquesiionably one of the best but Zahid separated himself. He beat Hall twice and the second time was not close in any way. Since then, he destroyed Dieringer (yes, it was freestyle, but....) and took Dake down cleanly on a close loss. With Snyder now gone, I'd say Zahid is the best NCAA wrestler this year and Hall is in the conversation for top 5.

 

He wouldn't he the best if Snyder were still in college?    Same Snyder who was held to a single point in losing a big bout last year?     

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Hall is unquesiionably one of the best but Zahid separated himself. He beat Hall twice and the second time was not close in any way. Since then, he destroyed Dieringer (yes, it was freestyle, but....) and took Dake down cleanly on a close loss. With Retherford now gone, I'd say Nolf is the best NCAA wrestler this year and Hall is in the conversation for top 5.

FIFY

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Ya that’s the same guy.

 

Interesting.    I've seen where some have him in the top 5, but not as the best.    Guys like Nolf, Zain, Valencia, etc., clearly better.     Shoot if the Lee boy hadn't dropped a couple bouts,  many would have him above the Snyder guy too.    Shame he's not returning, I'd like to see more evidence provided on this topic.  

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Interesting.    I've seen where some have him in the top 5, but not as the best.    Guys like Nolf, Zain, Valencia, etc., clearly better.     Shoot if the Lee boy hadn't dropped a couple bouts,  many would have him above the Snyder guy too.    Shame he's not returning, I'd like to see more evidence provided on this topic.  

 

 

Let's also keep in mind Snyder's relative size gap/difference when making these comparisons.  Everyone except Snyder was wrestling guys of their identical weight.  Snyder was walking around at 225 (supposedly), and wrestling someone like Coon, who was 285.  The 60lb gap is equivalent to 26.67% of Snyder's walk-around weight.  

 

So... assume that Zahid's walk-around weight was 174 (and it wasn't... because he was cutting), to make the analogy apples to apples, Zahid's opponent would weigh 220.

 

Spencer Lee's opponent would weigh 158.

 

Jason Nolf's opponent would weigh 198.  

 

The point is that I strongly encourage folks to think along these terms, and then see if their original evaluation still holds true. Imagine Nolf wrestling J'Den Cox at 197, while he's weighing 157.  That's a gap.

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Let's also keep in mind Snyder's relative size gap/difference when making these comparisons.  Everyone except Snyder was wrestling guys of their identical weight.  Snyder was walking around at 225 (supposedly), and wrestling someone like Coon, who was 285.  The 60lb gap is equivalent to 26.67% of Snyder's walk-around weight.  

 

So... assume that Zahid's walk-around weight was 174 (and it wasn't... because he was cutting), to make the analogy apples to apples, Zahid's opponent would weigh 220.

 

Spencer Lee's opponent would weigh 158.

 

Jason Nolf's opponent would weigh 198.  

 

The point is that I strongly encourage folks to think along these terms, and then see if their original evaluation still holds true. Imagine Nolf wrestling J'Den Cox at 197, while he's weighing 157.  That's a gap.

 

 

Huge gaps, but Snyder chooses to wrestle Hwt and not 197. Snyder could go 197 and I think we'd all agree he'd have pummeled everyone at that weight. 

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Let's also keep in mind Snyder's relative size gap/difference when making these comparisons.  Everyone except Snyder was wrestling guys of their identical weight.  Snyder was walking around at 225 (supposedly), and wrestling someone like Coon, who was 285.  The 60lb gap is equivalent to 26.67% of Snyder's walk-around weight.  

 

So... assume that Zahid's walk-around weight was 174 (and it wasn't... because he was cutting), to make the analogy apples to apples, Zahid's opponent would weigh 220.

 

Spencer Lee's opponent would weigh 158.

 

Jason Nolf's opponent would weigh 198.  

 

The point is that I strongly encourage folks to think along these terms, and then see if their original evaluation still holds true. Imagine Nolf wrestling J'Den Cox at 197, while he's weighing 157.  That's a gap.

 

 

Good points, but lets take away the disadvantage and examine the Snyder performance the same year he won his first senior world freestyle championship and competed down at 197 at NCAA's.   Beaten 5 times, including pinned center mat at NCAA's to close out the show.       

 

At heavyweight , he's the 3 time champ.    Which weight is the better weight for Snyder?   Is it when he's going with guys his size (2nd place, 5 losses, pinned, humiliated) or when he's smaller (3 championships, defeated center mat, held to a single point)?   If Nolf routinely wins the bracket Cox is in, I'd say that's a fair comparison. Nolf dominates his weight class FAR more than Snyder was able to dominate 197.    

 

My take is Snyder is best at HW, where the opponent is MUCH slower, MUCH less athletic, and MUCH less technically proficient with the entire spectrum of techniques.    Lets keep in mind when Snyder competes against the above mentioned Cox, it's razor thin in victory, or he loses.     

 

I have to conclude the Nolf comparison is disingenuous.   

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