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NWCA All Star Classic

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16 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

 


It was after the season back then ... and it started in 1967.

Every year people complain about it not being what it once was yet no one can even get those facts right. People started bailing when it was in February because they felt it impacted seeds when it wasn’t supposed to.

It’s the one dual (save PSU-tOSU last year) with more All-Americans going at it than any single event outside a B1G or NCAA final, yet people STILL complain about the awesome AAs aren’t good enough.

If there were 10 #1 vs #2s, someone would still complain about it not being as good as it was in the past. revisionist history.

 

#MNWCAASCGA

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All star matches arent considered when it comes to seeding/ranking. 

 Not true. Ask Mark Hall if it’s not considered. Defending national champ loses by a point in all-star Match and starts season ranked 2nd. Then goes undefeated in the toughest conference hitting most of the top guys and gets 2 seed at nationals.  

If it didn’t count how can an undefeated defending champ not only start season ranked second and get seeded 2nd at ncaa?

 

I hope PSU never sends another wrestler to this event.

 

 

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It didn’t matter what seed Hall had last year, he was not beating Zahid. 

That said, All-Star results aren’t supposed to count but they sort of do anyway by influencing the coachs’ rankings. 

In-season rankings by the various weestling media companies aren’t considered in NCAA seeding. 

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It didn’t matter what seed Hall had last year, he was not beating Zahid. 


That wasn’t the point. He said it didn’t count for rankings/seedings. It obviously does

Yeah there was SO much seperation between the two going into NCAAs. Hall was 1-0 ( officially)against Zahid so he had NO shot.


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6 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 


That wasn’t the point. He said it didn’t count for rankings/seedings. It obviously does

Yeah there was SO much seperation between the two going into NCAAs. Hall was 1-0 ( officially)against Zahid so he had NO shot.


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Results from previous season have no bearing on rankings.

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6 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 Not true. Ask Mark Hall if it’s not considered. Defending national champ loses by a point in all-star Match and starts season ranked 2nd. Then goes undefeated in the toughest conference hitting most of the top guys and gets 2 seed at nationals.  

If it didn’t count how can an undefeated defending champ not only start season ranked second and get seeded 2nd at ncaa?

 

I hope PSU never sends another wrestler to this event.

 

 

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What an absurd thing to whine about.  Life as a PSU fan must be hard if your beefs are things like this.  

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34 minutes ago, boconnell said:

What an absurd thing to whine about.  Life as a PSU fan must be hard if your beefs are things like this.  

bo, with all due respect, why can't you take the man's comment at face value for what it states? 

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Results from previous season have no bearing on rankings.


Then what does? He was defending champ. That’s how you start the ranking for next season. He was ranked 2nd coming into the season and seeded 2nd after going undefeated wrestling in the toughest conference in the country.

So what went in to him being ranked 2nd coming into season if it wasn’t all-star match genius



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What an absurd thing to whine about.  Life as a PSU fan must be hard if your beefs are things like this.  



Who’s whining? I’m giving my opinion. That’s what a message board is for


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For all the people that want to attack me and make snide comments. Just admit the all star match DOES count into ranking seeding.

If you cannot admit this after seeing what happened to Mark Hall last year then you’re lying to yourselves and there’s not much more to add when the facts are staring right at you.

I’m not whining. Just correcting people when they say “it don’t count for ranking/seeding” when it clearly did in Halls situation.

This was never about who’d win Hall/Zahid. That’s debatable and Zahid seems to have jumped a level as the season went on.

This is 100% about the comment that All-Star match doesn’t count for seeding/rankings.

Spencer Lee is defending champ. If he wrestles Suriano in all Star match and loses. Why should Spencer start season ranked #2 if it doesn’t count? If they both went undefeated and Suriano gets top seed what would Iowa fans think?


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9 hours ago, pish6969 said:


Yeah there was SO much seperation between the two going into NCAAs. Hall was 1-0 ( officially)against Zahid so he had NO 

 

I don’t care what the separation was at the beginning of the season, by the end, Zahid had passed Hall and wasn’t going to be denied whether he was the 1 seed, 10 seed, or unseeded. I point this out because if you’re going to gripe about seeding and All-Star results, you chose the worst possible example in recent memory of “injustice”. 

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I don’t care what the separation was at the beginning of the season, by the end, Zahid had passed Hall and wasn’t going to be denied whether he was the 1 seed, 10 seed, or unseeded. I point this out because if you’re going to gripe about seeding and All-Star results, you chose the worst possible example in recent memory of “injustice”. 

 

You still don’t get my point dummy

 

Worst example? It’s the only example I can think of where it was clear as day that this match impacted ranking/seed.

 

Are you that stupid?

 

Instead of telling me how much Zahid has separated from Hall which is subjective at best. Just answer the questions in order..

 

Where should Spencer Lee be ranked coming into this year? I will assume you’ll say 1st

 

If Spencer wrestles Suriano at all star match and loses. Where should Spencer be ranked to start the year?

 

If you say Spencer should be ranked 1st to start year regardless of all star match result since its not official I agree but that’s not what happened to Hall last year

 

If you say Spencer should be ranked 2nd then the All star match DID count against him which is the purpose of my inital post

 

 

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13 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 Not true. Ask Mark Hall if it’s not considered. Defending national champ loses by a point in all-star Match and starts season ranked 2nd. Then goes undefeated in the toughest conference hitting most of the top guys and gets 2 seed at nationals.  

If it didn’t count how can an undefeated defending champ not only start season ranked second and get seeded 2nd at ncaa?

 

I hope PSU never sends another wrestler to this event.

 

 

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Youre right, It can/does/should count towards rankings. It shouldnt/doesnt count towards seeding. 

Rankings dont matter so much to these guys, at least I hope not. Certainly not someone of Hall's caliber. Or anyone on PSU's squad for that matter. I hope they keep sending guys. Rankings dont mean squat. 

 

Edited by iGranby

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I can't think of a good reason why the All Star meet results wouldn't influence rankings.  It seems fair to me. 

Seeding criteria is limited to the results of the current season, so that is why reigning champ Hall didn't get a boost to top seed.

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Youre right, It can/does/should count towards rankings. It shouldnt/doesnt count towards seeding. 
Rankings dont matter so much to these guys, at least I hope not. Certainly not someone of Hall's caliber. Or anyone on PSU's squad for that matter. I hope they keep sending guys. Rankings dont mean squat. 
 



I don’t think an exhibition match should affect anything and I don’t think PSU did either. We’ll see if they send any other #1s to this event.

As far as your 2nd point. It absolutely affected seeding. This match was weighed in the coaches rankings it was the only thing that separated Hall/Zahid.

And just to iterate i am not knocking Zahid, taking anything away from him as he’s an awesome wrestler and earned everything he got.

Here’s a better example how it could affect a championship run.

Spencer Lee, Daton Fix and Nick S all at 125.

Spencer loses to Nick in all star match. They all go undefeated during regular season and the final seeding is 1 Nick 2 Spencer 3 Daton. You don’t think Spencer would have an easier road to finals than going thru Daton? And for what? a supposedly meaningless all star match preseason?

You’ll most likely see the #2 or lower guys in future events

I agree the rankings don’t matter but the seedings do. This affected both


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2 minutes ago, pish6969 said:

 

 


I don’t think an exhibition match should affect anything and I don’t think PSU did either. We’ll see if they send any other #1s to this event.

As far as your 2nd point. It absolutely affected seeding. This match was weighed in the coaches rankings it was the only thing that separated Hall/Zahid.

And just to iterate i am not knocking Zahid, taking anything away from him as he’s an awesome wrestler and earned everything he got.

Here’s a better example how it could affect a championship run.

Spencer Lee, Daton Fix and Nick S all at 125.

Spencer loses to Nick in all star match. They all go undefeated during regular season and the final seeding is 1 Nick 2 Spencer 3 Daton. You don’t think Spencer would have an easier road to finals than going thru Daton? And for what? a supposedly meaningless all star match preseason?

You’ll most likely see the #2 or lower guys in future events

I agree the rankings don’t matter but the seedings do. This affected both


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I gotcha - you raise plenty of good/fair points. I dont think youre knocking Zahid or anyone. 

Some of it goes into matter of opinion I suppose - because the seeding committee has stated that the all-star doesnt play into seeding, but like you're saying - why else would Zahid have been seeded ahead of Hall at NCAAs? One could argue that they just believed Zahid deserved the 1 seed more, and another could argue the way you have. 

I do understand what you're saying in any case. I hope it doesnt stop teams from sending their guys to the All-Star. 

 

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Seeding criteria is limited to the results of the current season, so that is why reigning champ Hall didn't get a boost to top seed.


In the “current season” they both went undefeated and both wrestled all the top guys. The only thing that separates them was the coaches rankings which took the all star match into consideration


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Wow, I thought this was well covered last year.  I see the Penn State fans feeling very strongly about this and the "only" thing that could possibly have resulted in Valencia getting the 1 seed was the exhibition match.   I love it when people bring actual hard data to discussion - so I thought I'd try to do the same.  Here are results both wrestlers had against guys seeded well at the NCAA tournament.

Hall

#4 Kutler   --  3-2, 4-0  (1 very close decisions, one solid decision)

#5 Amine - 6-5, 4-3 (2 very close decisions)

#6 Bo Jordan  6-4 (close decision)

#8 Jadean Bernsteain 4-0 (solid decision)

 

Valencia

#4 Jordan Kutler 11-4   (Near Major)

#5 Myles Amine 4-2 (close decision)

#6 Bo Jordan  9-4, 9-6 (two solid decisions)

#7 Taylor Lujan 9-6, 14-6 (one solid decision, one near major)

#9 Keaton Subjeck 15-7, 25-9  (major and TF)

#11 David Kocer  21-6, 18-7 (TF and Major)

In summary, the top three guys Hall beat, Valencia beat as well and beat them with a greater point differential.  Valencia beat #7 by major.  Hall beat #8 by decision.

Who would you rank #1 based on these results?    Penn State fans posting here ... you seriously wouldn't rank Valencia #1?  Really?  Remember, do NOT take into account prior year results.

 

 

Edited by nom

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1 hour ago, pish6969 said:

 


In the “current season” they both went undefeated and both wrestled all the top guys. The only thing that separates them was the coaches rankings which took the all star match into consideration


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pish, nothing personal, see my post above.  Seems like the coach rankings didn't need the exhibition to rank Valencia #1.

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pish, nothing personal, see my post above.  Seems like the coach rankings didn't need the exhibition to rank Valencia #1.

 

 

A decision is a decision and worth 3 team points regardless if its 4-0 or 1-0. So I’m not really looking at margin of victory as determining factor.

 

If we’re being real. You have 2 undefeated wrestlers that beat everyone in front of them (who they face isn’t up to them). Yeah I’d go to the defending champ.

 

Let’s not kid ourselves. If Zahid and Hall never met in all star match, Hall would be 1 seed? Why you ask? Because it would come down to coaches rankings and there’s no way in the world coaches would put a guy ahead of the defending champ when the last time they met the champ won.

 

 

 

 

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I don't understand what issue there is, but I'll agree with pish that Zahid was seeded first in part because of his win over Hall in a preseason match.  

The system worked and the two top seeds provided an exciting final.  

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Ok.  Three scenarios:

1.  Coaches consider only current season results — if so, Zahid could reasonably be ranked #1.

2.  Coaches consider prior year results and consider Hall’s championship as overcoming Zahid’s slightly better in season performance.  Hall ranked number #1 (inappropriately since prior season results are specifically said to not count).

3.  Coaches consider prior year results and consider result of exhibition match.  Combined with Zahid’s slightly better in season results this results in Zahid being ranked #1 (overall inappropriate since should not consider prior year results or exhibition match).

I can see #3 being what happened.  End result is like #1 which is appropriate.

I see the concern champs might have putting themselves on the line and wrestling the best competitors.  They worry about not winning and hurting their ranking since they think their in season performance may not be good enough.  Or, they are champs and enjoy the challenge and the competition.

I love the all-star meet and the whole idea of it.  I give major props to the competitors for overcoming their fears and insecurities and putting on a show for us fans.

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9 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 

Instead of telling me how much Zahid has separated from Hall which is subjective at best. Just answer the questions in order..

 

This is awesome stuff right here.  In the midst of spinning out a cloud of unsupported opinions, you say it's subjective at best that Zahid has separated from Hall.  That is the only thing in all your discussions that is decidedly not subjective.  He objectively beat him with plenty of separation.  

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2 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 

 

A decision is a decision and worth 3 team points regardless if its 4-0 or 1-0. So I’m not really looking at margin of victory as determining factor.

 

If we’re being real. You have 2 undefeated wrestlers that beat everyone in front of them (who they face isn’t up to them). Yeah I’d go to the defending champ.

 

Let’s not kid ourselves. If Zahid and Hall never met in all star match, Hall would be 1 seed? Why you ask? Because it would come down to coaches rankings and there’s no way in the world coaches would put a guy ahead of the defending champ when the last time they met the champ won.

 

 

 

 

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You are going all time classic homer on this one and for no reason I can see.  

You are advocating they use prior years results (not allowed) while ranting up and down the thread about them using an exhibition result (not allowed).  You are advocating that no PSU wrestler ever take part in the all-star dual again based on the coaches ignoring the wrong part of the rules in your opinion.  And to top it all you are arguing on behalf of a meaningless 1 vs 2 seed for a guy who got handled in the finals anyways.  

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35 minutes ago, boconnell said:

You are going all time classic homer on this one and for no reason I can see.  

You are advocating they use prior years results (not allowed) while ranting up and down the thread about them using an exhibition result (not allowed).  You are advocating that no PSU wrestler ever take part in the all-star dual again based on the coaches ignoring the wrong part of the rules in your opinion.  And to top it all you are arguing on behalf of a meaningless 1 vs 2 seed for a guy who got handled in the finals anyways.  

 

I agree with this.  If seeds upset someone, they should just think of it as a means of separation of the best wresters.  This is it's purpose.  Don't look at it as some sort of honor or award.

 

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