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NWCA All Star Classic

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17 hours ago, Gantry said:

You figure they would just call it 133 and give a big allowance if that's where they are wrestling the season - but maybe the classic is always scratch weight.

Yup! That’s what they did, but they list it at the weight that it is technically at. Anything above 133 is listed at 141, even though their allowance is only 2-3 pounds

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On 10/6/2018 at 1:46 AM, JasonBryant said:

 


It was after the season back then ... and it started in 1967.

Every year people complain about it not being what it once was yet no one can even get those facts right. People started bailing when it was in February because they felt it impacted seeds when it wasn’t supposed to.

It’s the one dual (save PSU-tOSU last year) with more All-Americans going at it than any single event outside a B1G or NCAA final, yet people STILL complain about the awesome AAs aren’t good enough.

If there were 10 #1 vs #2s, someone would still complain about it not being as good as it was in the past. revisionist history.

 

I don’t know all the dates but in 1975 it was during the season. I know because my high school teammate participated. 

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First six years (and every single one that took place in the 1960s - which is one era you cited specifically) was after the season. That is a factual statement.

You said "In the sixties & seventies almost all the top guys participated"

So of course the top guys were determined after the college season, which stands to reason they'd get the best guys. Now, when it move to mid-season, did we get all the top guys? How do you determine those top guys then are better than the top guys now? It's your perception, not a fact.

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Not if Zahid goes 184. That's the matchup I would love to see the most and it would have no effect on seeding so pish couldn't complain. Any idea what Nickal is weighing these days?

 

 

No but it it would probably affect the losers hodge chances. I’d pass

 

Many of you seem to hate PSU but then when it comes to matchups, PSU the first names out of your mouth

 

Enjoy the matches without PSU.

 

PS—if they came out and announce the matches count officially then I’d have no problem with the event as each competitor knows what’s on the line. What I don’t like is claiming to “not” count when it clearly does

 

 

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53 minutes ago, pish6969 said:

 

No but it it would probably affect the losers hodge chances. I’d pass

 

Many of you seem to hate PSU but then when it comes to matchups, PSU the first names out of your mouth

 

Enjoy the matches without PSU.

 

PS—if they came out and announce the matches count officially then I’d have no problem with the event as each competitor knows what’s on the line. What I don’t like is claiming to “not” count when it clearly does

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I agree.  If Hall knew what was on the line he would have wrestled that all-star match different.  He would have wrestled more like the NCAA final that counted a few month later.

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17 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

First six years (and every single one that took place in the 1960s - which is one era you cited specifically) was after the season. That is a factual statement.

You said "In the sixties & seventies almost all the top guys participated"

So of course the top guys were determined after the college season, which stands to reason they'd get the best guys. Now, when it move to mid-season, did we get all the top guys? How do you determine those top guys then are better than the top guys now? It's your perception, not a fact.

Would it help attendance to move the All-Star Dual to some non traditional college markets?  Dallas, Atlanta, Orlando, Tampa, Los Angeles, etc...

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35 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Would it help attendance to move the All-Star Dual to some non traditional college markets?  Dallas, Atlanta, Orlando, Tampa, Los Angeles, etc...

We’ll, it’s in Denver this year.  UNC and Air Force (and sorta Wyoming) aren’t exactly traditional collegiate wrestling hotbeds....

Edited by fudge_tunnel

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4 hours ago, fudge_tunnel said:

We’ll, it’s in Denver this year.  UNC and Air Force (and sorta Wyoming) aren’t exactly traditional collegiate wrestling hotbeds....

The Colorado high school state tournament draws huge at the Pepsi Center, but therein lies another factor with our sport - there is such a disconnect between high school wrestling fans and college fans. How do we make kids who aren't die-hards about wrestling and turn them into college wrestling fans? 

I remember about 10 years ago, I was announcing the Virginia state wrestling tournament and Nick Simmons, then ranked #1, was upset in a dual meet. I said to a guy who ran a large wrestling site in Virginia, "Oh man! Nick Simmons just got upset." He replied with "Who's Nick Simmons?" I said "Ranked #1, All-American from Michigan State."

"Oh, I don't follow college." 

I do realize not every "basketball fan" follows all of college and the NBA, but do we have people who solely follow high school basketball and have no interest beyond it? That might seem weird to some people, but it happens in wrestling a lot. Hopefully tying the event into some existing structured events can increase awareness of college wrestling (and beyond) in Denver. 

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7 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 

No but it it would probably affect the losers hodge chances. I’d pass.

Many of you seem to hate PSU but then when it comes to matchups, PSU the first names out of your mouth

Enjoy the matches without PSU.

PS—if they came out and announce the matches count officially then I’d have no problem with the event as each competitor knows what’s on the line. What I don’t like is claiming to “not” count when it clearly does.

 

 

You are correct, it cleary DOES count in ways that matter. 

You will get them pissed by telling them to put on the All Star without PSU. They tend to hate talk like that. 

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1 hour ago, JasonBryant said:

The Colorado high school state tournament draws huge at the Pepsi Center, but therein lies another factor with our sport - there is such a disconnect between high school wrestling fans and college fans. How do we make kids who aren't die-hards about wrestling and turn them into college wrestling fans? 

I remember about 10 years ago, I was announcing the Virginia state wrestling tournament and Nick Simmons, then ranked #1, was upset in a dual meet. I said to a guy who ran a large wrestling site in Virginia, "Oh man! Nick Simmons just got upset." He replied with "Who's Nick Simmons?" I said "Ranked #1, All-American from Michigan State."

"Oh, I don't follow college." 

I do realize not every "basketball fan" follows all of college and the NBA, but do we have people who solely follow high school basketball and have no interest beyond it? That might seem weird to some people, but it happens in wrestling a lot. Hopefully tying the event into some existing structured events can increase awareness of college wrestling (and beyond) in Denver. 

You do have some people that are huge high school basketball fans that do not follow college basketball or the NBA.  What you really find are people that follow high school and college basketball but hate the NBA because it's a different game.  In most states high school wrestling and college wrestling are very different and many of the rules are not the same.  

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I agree.  If Hall knew what was on the line he would have wrestled that all-star match different.  He would have wrestled more like the NCAA final that counted a few month later.

 

 

You must have been soooo thrilled that a PSU guy lost in the final.

 

Not the point though

 

Who’s your team? Or are you a “field fan”

 

 

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1 hour ago, pish6969 said:

 

 

You must have been soooo thrilled that a PSU guy lost in the final.

 

Not the point though

 

Who’s your team? Or are you a “field fan”

 

 

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I root for OSU and it's been less than fun to see them not on top the past 10 years.

I have no problem with PSU and defend them on as many topics as not on this board.  I'm a big Bo Nickal fan automatically as a Texas guy.  I also love Joseph.  OSU not having a true title contender to go against Nickal or Jospeh the last few years is probably part of why I find it so easy to root for those guys.  I definitely rooted for Valencia in his matchups with Hall.  Valencia is the only ASU guy I like but I like his attacking style (also why I like Nickal and don't like Hall).  

But none of those things are the reason your beef with the All-Star dual is silly.

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IF there are TOP guys out there that are "protecting" anything......... they aren't REALLY top guys. Fans want the protection.............. wrestlers want to uh........wrestle.



If it’s not supposed to count it’s not supposed to count. I don’t think Mark Hall was worried about protecting anything when he took the match that fans wanted to see. It’s was supposed to be a “preseason event” for the fans.

I’m sure Cael and Hall were less than thrilled when seedings came out and an undefeated returning national champ at the same weight was seeded 2nd. It didn’t matter in this case as they were the clear 1 and 2.

As I said earlier in an earlier post. Spencer Lee, Daton Fix and Nick Suriano all go undefeated. Strength of schedule all pretty much the same. It’s common sense Spencer would be 1 seed since he is returning champ at the weight. Now Spencer loses a “preseason” match that’s not supposed to count to Nick S. Nick S gets the 1 seed and Spencer and Daton meet in semis? Who has easiest road to the finals in that scenario? Should it be decided by a match that’s supposed to be a preseason exhibition? Or should the final vote go towards defending champ?

I know my answer. What’s yours? And please don’t say last year’s results don’t matter. If both guys are undefeated, similar strength of schedule and nothing else, how can you not go back to last year’s final match.

I will say again. If it counts than say it counts for seeding implications/hodge consideration and let all competitors know. If you’re a saying it doesn’t count than it shouldn’t come into play for seeding or hodge consideration.

Then people will say “well the match did happen how can you ignore it.” Which is a fair point but if it doesn’t count it shouldn’t count.

If Micah loses his wrestle off to Hayes and then goes undefeated during the year, is anyone going to bring up the Hayes match since “it technically happened.” Probably not because it was not an official match. Not sure why the all star match counted for seeding when it wasn’t an official match.

Doubt you’ll see any number 1 PSU guys at this event any time soon. If that’s the case then they view it like I did. If they send number 1s I’ll eat my words. Doubt it

Now will they send number 2s? Maybe since it obviously affects seeding but doubt they’ll send anyone





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I root for OSU and it's been less than fun to see them not on top the past 10 years.
I have no problem with PSU and defend them on as many topics as not on this board.  I'm a big Bo Nickal fan automatically as a Texas guy.  I also love Joseph.  OSU not having a true title contender to go against Nickal or Jospeh the last few years is probably part of why I find it so easy to root for those guys.  I definitely rooted for Valencia in his matchups with Hall.  Valencia is the only ASU guy I like but I like his attacking style (also why I like Nickal and don't like Hall).  
But none of those things are the reason your beef with the All-Star dual is silly.


Now I get it. Last year’s tournament must still sting. Probably the worst performance from a top team I can remember in a long time


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5 hours ago, Bryan said:

You do have some people that are huge high school basketball fans that do not follow college basketball or the NBA.  What you really find are people that follow high school and college basketball but hate the NBA because it's a different game.  In most states high school wrestling and college wrestling are very different and many of the rules are not the same.  

The rule differences aren't as drastic as folkstyle to freestyle, so I don't know if the rule differences are that big of a factor and I don't see "very different" between HS and college - out of bounds, NF scoring and riding time are explained in about 30 seconds to HS wrestling fans.

 As much as I dislike riding time, why don't more HS fans watch? This board is more the choir here, since Joe Average HS fans isn't seeking out national message boards to discuss Hometown High. These are the same kids people watched the previous four years. I just can't quite figure out why HS fans wouldn't want to follow that guy as he goes on to the next level. 

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For having such a great team I’m consistently surprised about the whining and moaning and sniping that Penn State fans exhibit.  I do my best to not have the fans tarnish my impression of the team.

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Whining is not new. When Iowa was winning nationals every year it was the same thing. People are people regardless of geography. They whine. 

What I find interesting is the All-Star classic kept getting moved earlier and earlier, from after the season, to middle, to November. Then they dropped the East-West team concept. Perhaps the East got tired of getting beaten every year; in order to save face, the team concept was dropped. But, if they brought it back, the West would be whining. You have to allow for the passage of "eras."

Anyway, imo we made a mistake by dropping the excitement of the team aspect, then moving it to the beginning of the season when interest is minimized from coaches pulling their best. Why risk an injury or a seed even if we're told "it doesnt count," when it just may.

I don't think it'll hurt to be held after the season and reinstate the E-W team concept. I'd bet there'd be more NCAA champs involved, and better matchups and bigger crowds. Throw in an exhibition(s) between former, recent NCAA champs/olympians.

By comparison it now seems watered down and weakened. 

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4 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

The rule differences aren't as drastic as folkstyle to freestyle, so I don't know if the rule differences are that big of a factor and I don't see "very different" between HS and college - out of bounds, NF scoring and riding time are explained in about 30 seconds to HS wrestling fans.

 As much as I dislike riding time, why don't more HS fans watch? This board is more the choir here, since Joe Average HS fans isn't seeking out national message boards to discuss Hometown High. These are the same kids people watched the previous four years. I just can't quite figure out why HS fans wouldn't want to follow that guy as he goes on to the next level. 

My guess is the next level isn't as exciting. College guys make fewer mistakes and aren't as willing to throw caution to the wind. And it's a lot easier and cheaper to drive a couple miles, especially in bad weather.

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14 hours ago, pish6969 said:

I’m sure Cael and Hall were less than thrilled when seedings came out and an undefeated returning national champ at the same weight was seeded 2nd. It didn’t matter in this case as they were the clear 1 and 2.

 

 

 

Just so we're clear - per NCAA seeding criteria, previous year's finish is also "not supposed to count", right?

But Valancia did have the higher RPI of the two - which is based solely on the current season's official results.

Edited by red blades

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