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NWCA All Star Classic

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3 hours ago, treep2000 said:

So.... I'm about ready to buy my tix...  who else is going?  Would be "fun" to put a face with a screen name. 

I am trying to decide.......... All-Star......... or Cliff Keen Vegas. Gotta see if there are any good concerts in Vegas that week.

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On 10/15/2018 at 3:22 PM, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Well, Zahid went last year... didn't seem to hurt him in March.  Darian Cruz went too, and lost.... still the #1 seed.  Gross, Micic, Kolodzik, Meredith, Macchiavello... things turned out just fine for those guys.  

You and pish are complaining about a very specific potential set of circumstances that, except very rarely, will work itself out in the regular season anyway.  

Really strange line you guys are drawing in the sand.  Not sure why this bothers you at all, let alone this much.  

There is no line being drawn.  The all-star meet is not supposed to affect seeing.  It does.  We saw it last year.  What I should I have said is that if a guy thinks there is a guarantee that it won't affect seeding they're are wrong.  It has affected seeding.  In the case of Mark Hall and Zahid it didn't matter in the end because both were in the finals.  I think this hurts the All-Star meet more, though.  The fact that it does play a roll in seeding may affect the decision of guys to want to compete in it.  

Edited by StallWarning

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Situation to consider: When the NWCA owned InterMat, it was their policy that rankings not take into account the All-Star Classic. Some other places followed suit and others said “it’s a match, we are going to use it as a rankable match.”

Is the issue less of the match itself or how almost all the individual rankings outlets now use the All-Star as a rankable match result? Whatever rankings promote a program the best are the rankings, in my experience, teams like to promote. Penn State, for example, will always use InterMat, it’s just what they’ve done since even before I was there (05-08)

So what about the fans? We, in large, are smart enough to realize when a result happens at the All-Star, it should be a rankable result. But if coaches are looking at the half-dozen or so rankings to help set a guide to follow, and all of them count the All-Star, what is the right answer?

Try to talk all the rankings into NOT counting a result and getting editorial blowback? It happened when I suggested that to a couple of outlets in 2006.

Why should we be surprised the #1 guy in all 15 rankings ends up seeded #1?

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Meh, I don't think the match should count in future rankings. First match back, guys aren't really settled into their new weights yet, maybe. Plus that would discourage participation to "protect" seeds (we've seen how craven coaches are about avoiding possible losses for their wrestlers).

 

I could see fans using the match to say "yeah, such and such is better than the other guy", but don't think the results should count "officially".

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could just make it a truly unrankable match, ie wrestled under slightly different rules or something. make it like 1-1-1, push out rule, 5 pointer (ippon) ends match or something and give us entertainment and something to discuss albeit with an obvious * beside it in terms of 'actually counting'. 

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Why should we be surprised the #1 guy in all 15 rankings ends up seeded #1?

 

 

 

No. But that’s what started this all. If they never wrestled all star match who would have been ranked 1st all season long? The defending champ or the guy he beat in semis?

 

People think I’m upset or whatnot about this topic. I’m just giving my opinion.

 

My opinion is that if I’m a coach and I have a #1 ranked wrestler coming into season, I’m not putting him in all star match as it could impact seedings/hodge.

 

Example. Nolf wrestles Cenzo in all star match. It’s a match most fans would love to see. They wrestle at 165 Nolf weighs in at 157 Cenzo at 165. Cenzo wins a close 3/2 match. Nolf goes undefeated bonusing everyone during the year.

 

Nickal goes undefeated with a 90% bonus rate.

 

Does Nolf get the hodge or Nickal? I would bet they’d give it to Nickal because “the match happened”.

 

I don’t think it’s right. Others can agree to disagree and that’s fine.

 

 

 

 

 

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A seed, to my knowledge, has zero to do with the Hodge. If you're unbeaten, you're still in Hodge contention. 

Sometimes, we have to put what's important for the sport at the forefront. If you've got a #1 guy, what do you have to hide? I don't grasp the fact one exhibition match was detrimental to Mark Hall in any way, shape or form. Oh, he got the #2 seed. Big whoop. Holding someone out to protect a seed? In NOVEMBER? That seems to fly in the face of the wrestling mentality of challenging all comers, right?

 Would it have made any difference if Hall and Valencia's seeds were flopped last year? No. They would have still met in the finals. They were clearly on another tier than the rest of the field. The Hodge has its own criteria. They gave it to a guy with a loss one year. They gave it to a NAIA guy another. Cael shared it with a D3 guy with a handful of losses another. The Hodge should be the least of any coach's worries when the first whistle blows in October. 

I don't care one way or the other. I'm just adding some fodder for the discussion. 

 

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A seed, to my knowledge, has zero to do with the Hodge. If you're unbeaten, you're still in Hodge contention. 

Sometimes, we have to put what's important for the sport at the forefront. If you've got a #1 guy, what do you have to hide? I don't grasp the fact one exhibition match was detrimental to Mark Hall in any way, shape or form. Oh, he got the #2 seed. Big whoop. Holding someone out to protect a seed? In NOVEMBER? That seems to fly in the face of the wrestling mentality of challenging all comers, right?

 Would it have made any difference if Hall and Valencia's seeds were flopped last year? No. They would have still met in the finals. They were clearly on another tier than the rest of the field. The Hodge has its own criteria. They gave it to a guy with a loss one year. They gave it to a NAIA guy another. Cael shared it with a D3 guy with a handful of losses another. The Hodge should be the least of any coach's worries when the first whistle blows in October. 

I don't care one way or the other. I'm just adding some fodder for the discussion. 

 

 

We agree it didn’t affect anything last year but IMO it set a precedent that I wonder if coaches take into consideration.

 

You wonder if coaches will do things to protect seeds or gain and edge? Go see some of Tom Ryan’s moves over the years including the one where he forfeited his own kid in first rd so he can get a better draw in wrestlebacks.

 

I understand hodge doesn’t have anything to do with seeding. But In the scenario I gave above with Nolf/Cenzo and Bo, what do you think would be the outcome in that scenario?

 

I gave a scenario a few days ago using Spencer, Suriano and Fix.

 

My whole point to all this is how a “practice/non official match” can absolutely have an impact on rankings, seedings and hodge.

 

Nothing more nothing less

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 

My opinion is that if I’m a coach and I have a #1 ranked wrestler coming into season, I’m not putting him in all star match as it could impact seedings/hodge.

 

Rob Koll did that twice with Gabe Dean.  He won both times, of course.  And didn't Koll do that another time with someone else, whose name escapes me?

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3 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 

No. But that’s what started this all. If they never wrestled all star match who would have been ranked 1st all season long? The defending champ or the guy he beat in semis?

 

People think I’m upset or whatnot about this topic. I’m just giving my opinion.

 

My opinion is that if I’m a coach and I have a #1 ranked wrestler coming into season, I’m not putting him in all star match as it could impact seedings/hodge.

 

Example. Nolf wrestles Cenzo in all star match. It’s a match most fans would love to see. They wrestle at 165 Nolf weighs in at 157 Cenzo at 165. Cenzo wins a close 3/2 match. Nolf goes undefeated bonusing everyone during the year.

 

Nickal goes undefeated with a 90% bonus rate.

 

Does Nolf get the hodge or Nickal? I would bet they’d give it to Nickal because “the match happened”.

 

I don’t think it’s right. Others can agree to disagree and that’s fine.

 

 

 

 

 

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I agree with almost all of this.  I wouldn't put a #1 ranked guy in the all-star dual.  It has nothing to do with dodging or looking for competition.  Most of those guys had full summers and will have very full winters.  The only exception is a guy like Gross who did little in the summer and has a slightly easier schedule in the winter.  And even with a guy like that I'd bump him up a weight so the loss wouldn't 'count' against him. 

As for your example of Nolf and Cenzo I don't think it hurts Nolf at all with Hodge voters because he's the one bumping up in this hypothetical.  It would totally hurt Cenzo with voters if he lost though.  But if I really wanted the Hodge I'd wrestle the all-star dual and just demand a match up a weight.  Nothing looks better than beating a guy up a weight.  Askren became a legend for beating a very good Kish.

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I agree with almost all of this.  I wouldn't put a #1 ranked guy in the all-star dual.  It has nothing to do with dodging or looking for competition.  Most of those guys had full summers and will have very full winters.  The only exception is a guy like Gross who did little in the summer and has a slightly easier schedule in the winter.  And even with a guy like that I'd bump him up a weight so the loss wouldn't 'count' against him. 
As for your example of Nolf and Cenzo I don't think it hurts Nolf at all with Hodge voters because he's the one bumping up in this hypothetical.  It would totally hurt Cenzo with voters if he lost though.  But if I really wanted the Hodge I'd wrestle the all-star dual and just demand a match up a weight.  Nothing looks better than beating a guy up a weight.  Askren became a legend for beating a very good Kish.



Thank you for understanding my position.

Now your opinion is it wouldn’t hurt Nolf if he bumped up and lost. That’s the issue. Who the heck knows? It SHOULDNT hurt him but...the match happened.

Who knows. I’d rather avoid it and focus on matches that we know are official and count. Now if they ever change the all stars and say it’s official event then I’m all for anyone going if they want to prove themselves in an official capacity.


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Are there any more details as to who is wrestling?  I want to attend, and live just south of Denver, but I'm not going to if we have 3rd rate guys showing up.


Just saw Jacobe Smith vs Myles Amine at 174. Interesting. I figured Rodgers would be OSU 174. Is it possible Rodgers going 184?


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3 hours ago, treep2000 said:

Are there any more details as to who is wrestling?  I want to attend, and live just south of Denver, but I'm not going to if we have 3rd rate guys showing up.

So far, this is who’s been announced...

133 - Tariq Wilson/Seth Gross

141 - Hoey McKenna/Kaid Brock

174 - Jacobe Smith/Myles Amine

184 - Taylor Venz/Max Dean

Hwt - Derek White/???

Kinda weird that the entire lineup has yet to be set, a little over a week beforehand.  Friday afternoon traffic on I-70 in Denver is not fun, I hope it’s worth it...

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1 hour ago, pish6969 said:

 


Just saw Jacobe Smith vs Myles Amine at 174. Interesting. I figured Rodgers would be OSU 174. Is it possible Rodgers going 184?


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If Smith is down at 174, Rogers to 184 is a safe assumption.

Rogers wrestled 86kg at U23 trials, for what it's worth.  

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If Smith is down at 174, Rogers to 184 is a safe assumption.
Rogers wrestled 86kg at U23 trials, for what it's worth.  



I guess I’ve never thought Rodgers was big. Eye test Smith looks a lot bigger but I guess you’re right


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Didn't Rogers do some wrestling at 184 early in his career?  I seem to remember him wrestling Sammy Brooks.  And yes, very interesting, almost certainly confirms JoJo to 165 and a battle with Greer at 184...

 

Edited by Gantry

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4 hours ago, pish6969 said:

 


Just saw Jacobe Smith vs Myles Amine at 174. Interesting. I figured Rodgers would be OSU 174. Is it possible Rodgers going 184?


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Just speculating, but maybe Rogers is the odd man out? But is the first back up for 165-184?

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On 10/17/2018 at 6:51 AM, StallWarning said:

There is no line being drawn.  The all-star meet is not supposed to affect seeing.  It does.  We saw it last year.  What I should I have said is that if a guy thinks there is a guarantee that it won't affect seeding they're are wrong.  It has affected seeding.  In the case of Mark Hall and Zahid it didn't matter in the end because both were in the finals.  I think this hurts the All-Star meet more, though.  The fact that it does play a roll in seeding may affect the decision of guys to want to compete in it.  

So Hall lost in the NCAA finals because he was seeded 2nd? If only he was the #1 seed he wouldn't have been taken down 3 times.

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2 hours ago, Gantry said:

Didn't Rogers do some wrestling at 184 early in his career?  I seem to remember him wrestling Sammy Brooks.  And yes, very interesting, almost certainly confirms JoJo to 165 and a battle with Greer at 184...

 

Hi might've in an open tournament or something.

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5 hours ago, fudge_tunnel said:

So far, this is who’s been announced...

133 - Tariq Wilson/Seth Gross

141 - Hoey McKenna/Kaid Brock

174 - Jacobe Smith/Myles Amine

184 - Taylor Venz/Max Dean

Hwt - Derek White/???

Kinda weird that the entire lineup has yet to be set, a little over a week beforehand.  Friday afternoon traffic on I-70 in Denver is not fun, I hope it’s worth it...

"All-Star Classic" might be the wrong name for this event.   How about "Almost Star Non-classic"?   So far, it looks like a pretty uninspiring set of matchups.  Gross is the only returning Champion.  Mostly 3rd, 5th, or even 8th ranked guys.  No Iowa.  No Penn State.    Okay, well, it gets the season off to a start at least.

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On 10/13/2018 at 11:43 AM, boconnell said:

The worst part of your argument is you keep pushing that the past year's results count while being angry that the exhibition counted.  You want them to ignore criteria in one case and follow it in another, and the deciding factor is what you think should and shouldn't count.  

Previous years can't officially count.

Exhibitions can't officially count.

Coach's opinions do count.  Coach's opinions are often times formed on things that are not officially allowed in the other criteria.  I never heard anyone say that coach's can't consider last year's results in the coach's rankings.  I never heard anyone say coach's couldn't consider the all-star dual.  I heard last year's finish is not a seeding criteria.  I heard the dual is not an official match so it won't play into the head to head criteria or winning percentage criteria.  But when it comes to coach's rankings, that's all opinion and rumors of practice matches, freestyle results, past results, margin of victory, FLO rankings, wrestlestat's computer rankings, coach's bias, who that coach wants to see on their side of the bracket, etc...The number of things that influence coaches on an opinion vote is almost limitless. 

Wow, you need to get off here. An intelligent post, not influenced by your favorite team, devoid of all whining and full of points that shred some fan boys argument. You may be banned for that! Sarcasm aside, excellent post.

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