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MSU158

Micah Jordan

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Hayes has no attack. How many shots did he take?  His only offense was to drag off of Jordan’s shot. Hard to win if you don’t attack. Almost made that approach work in the first match but nope, guy who attacked won. 

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In fact, this is why i just can't get excited about tOSU. Assuming these guys are both products of the program...

1) Hayes did nothing because he knew Jordan would take neutral

2) Jordan took neutral

This is mid october, and they've had nothing to do but train and grow as wrestlers for months, but nothing ever seems to change, sorta like they are the same wrestlers they were in high school. 

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8 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

In fact, this is why i just can't get excited about tOSU. Assuming these guys are both products of the program...

1) Hayes did nothing because he knew Jordan would take neutral

2) Jordan took neutral

This is mid october, and they've had nothing to do but train and grow as wrestlers for months, but nothing ever seems to change, sorta like they are the same wrestlers they were in high school. 

You think guys don’t make jumps in the tOSU room? That’s silly

you think Micah would’ve placed 4th his freshman year? Because he didn’t. He wouldn’t have gotten nearly as close his true freshman year either. 

You think NATO came in as an ncaa champ or was developed into that?

Myles Martin has no chance of AAing according to this board his true freshman year and everyone yelled at Tom Ryan for pulling his shirt. He knew that Martin was making huge leaps in the room 

Kolin Moore wasn’t even a highly touted recruit. You didn’t see his development?

 

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12 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Wins his wrestle offs 2-1 and 8-2. INCLUDING an escape within 5 seconds of starting down. Again, he is far from Phil Keddy, but his bottom wrestling "issues" have definitely been exaggerated. 

You've completely left out the fact that I believe Micah chose neutral in both matches and Hayes chose top in the third in the second match.  Look, you might be right that people exaggerate how bad he is on bottom, but the fact that he wouldn't choose down in a wrestle off is prove that even Micah is not confident he can get out on bottom.

I still think Micah is the favorite at 149lbs this year but he absolutely has a deficiency on bottom and he appears to know it. 

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4 minutes ago, StallWarning said:

You've completely left out the fact that I believe Micah chose neutral in both matches and Hayes chose top in the third in the second match.  Look, you might be right that people exaggerate how bad he is on bottom, but the fact that he wouldn't choose down in a wrestle off is prove that even Micah is not confident he can get out on bottom.

I still think Micah is the favorite at 149lbs this year but he absolutely has a deficiency on bottom and he appears to know it. 

This.

I saw MSU comment last nite and was sure someone would challenge it. Your debate points are sound. 

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1 minute ago, StallWarning said:

You've completely left out the fact that I believe Micah chose neutral in both matches and Hayes chose top in the third in the second match.  Look, you might be right that people exaggerate how bad he is on bottom, but the fact that he wouldn't choose down in a wrestle off is prove that even Micah is not confident he can get out on bottom.

I still think Micah is the favorite at 149lbs this year but he absolutely has a deficiency on bottom and he appears to know it. 

He does, but Hayes is actually one of the best top riders at 149.

im trying to figure out who at 149 has a top game that will kill Micah. I get that he has a clear weakness, but I think it applies mostly for close matches. He has to win the takedown battle vs everyone top 10 to win. That is doable, but starting down 0-1 against guys like Kolodzik, Ashnault or Leeth is tough. Especially considering he likely had to do it 2-3 times in a row at NCAAs. 

I don’t think those type of guys turn him, but I do think they are good enough for him to choose neutral and rely on his game on the feet

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To be CRYSTAL CLEAR.  I have NEVER said Micah is good on bottom.  Simply serviceable.  Choosing his best position BY FAR over bottom doesn't change that.  Especially when doing so in the 2nd period when the score is 0-0.  It is VERY sound strategy.  It basically guarantees a huge portion of the match is wrestled where he has an advantage and forces his opponent to make a decision in the 3rd to either choose bottom or try top.

Now, if his choice is in the 3rd, and his opponent scored a quick escape in the second to be up 1-0, THEN  his decision becomes much more important.

Again, I am not saying Jordan is even a cheap version of Phil Keddy on the mat.  What I AM saying is that his bottom wrestling was proven to be nowhere near an issue against Hayes(as several predicted) and I do NOT believe it will be against anyone at 149 this season.

 

Finally, the other part of my focus on Nolf and Retherford was how they were able to score back points at will.  A few others may have been able to hold him down for substantial time, but how many back points have been scored on him in his career(from starting at the bottom position) by everyone else but those 2?

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You guys do realize that Micah has a REAL shot to win the title at 149, right? To criticize either one of these guys with how they wrestled these two matches is kind of silly in the big picture isn’t it??

 

 

It’s typical MSU stirring the pot. Anyone with half a brain knows Micah an excellent wrestler and you’re right he does have a shot at 149.

 

Anyone knows Micah’s weakness is on bottom, MSU comes to try to spin a tale that he’s not. People try to talk sense in to him, he carries on.

 

I’m the meantime it looks as if people trashing Micah which is MSUs ultimate goal.

 

The reality I would say most Knowlegable fans consider Micah an excellent wrestler with a weakness from the bottom position that wrestlers will try to exploit.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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2 hours ago, Aviator12 said:

You guys do realize that Micah has a REAL shot to win the title at 149, right? To criticize either one of these guys with how they wrestled these two matches is kind of silly in the big picture isn’t it??

Those noting Micah isn't the be all to end all from bottom would all likely agree he is a top wrestler overall. It is being debated for two reasons as I see it 1) MSU brought it up and made it an issue 2) if Micah is still choosing neutral as a 5th year senior, then bottom for him is a weakness. Everything is relative, but if he does not win ncaa then his bottom position will probably be one of the reasons. 

Edited by TBar1977

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5 hours ago, Housebuye said:

You think guys don’t make jumps in the tOSU room? That’s silly

you think Micah would’ve placed 4th his freshman year? Because he didn’t. He wouldn’t have gotten nearly as close his true freshman year either. 

You think NATO came in as an ncaa champ or was developed into that?

Myles Martin has no chance of AAing according to this board his true freshman year and everyone yelled at Tom Ryan for pulling his shirt. He knew that Martin was making huge leaps in the room 

Kolin Moore wasn’t even a highly touted recruit. You didn’t see his development?

 

I think Moore improved, likely because he had the best wrestler on earth to wrestle with.

Respectfully I don't buy your other examples. Elite high schoolers are at a way higher level they ever have been, Spenser Lee (given that I think Iowa does a better job developing their guys than tOSU so it kinda a weird example) just won easily, pinning tomato, who is one of your examples of development at tOSU.

Yianni just won with a torn ACL....i don't think its beyond comprehension at all that there isn't a lot of development going on.  

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5 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

I think Moore improved, likely because he had the best wrestler on earth to wrestle with.

Respectfully I don't buy your other examples. Elite high schoolers are at a way higher level they ever have been, Spenser Lee (given that I think Iowa does a better job developing their guys than tOSU so it kinda a weird example) just won easily, pinning tomato, who is one of your examples of development at tOSU.

Yianni just won with a torn ACL....i don't think its beyond comprehension at all that there isn't a lot of development going on.  

You're contradicting yourself in more ways than one.  

You can play this game with every single school to craft the exact same narrative.  

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3 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

I think Moore improved, likely because he had the best wrestler on earth to wrestle with.

Respectfully I don't buy your other examples. Elite high schoolers are at a way higher level they ever have been, Spenser Lee (given that I think Iowa does a better job developing their guys than tOSU so it kinda a weird example) just won easily, pinning tomato, who is one of your examples of development at tOSU.

Yianni just won with a torn ACL....i don't think its beyond comprehension at all that there isn't a lot of development going on.  

So obviously you have a thing against tOSU as most of your posts seem to be disparaging towards them.  I've been a Buckeye wrestling fan for a long time and the fact that there are so many OSU haters out there is really further evidence of how elite they have become.  That said you make a lot of posts that are not supported by facts I think you probably realize this and do it just to piss people off.  Spencer Lee is great and was great before arriving at Iowa.  Attacking Nato is pretty low class.  The guy is a freakin warrior who wrestled his senior year on a torn ACL and still found a way to beat everyone he faced (including Spencer Lee at Big 10's).  I'm sure you'll say that she weren't disparaging Nate just stating a fact, but your not so clever nickname and tone suggest otherwise.  Hating on an entire team because they are good is annoying, calling out and disrespecting one of the classiest dudes in college wrestling because he lost to stud while injured is a complete dickhead move.

Edited by balanceseeker

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Not sure people are hating on tOSU. In this internet age the motto of Ricky Bobby is true to fans. If you're not first you're last. Everybody that doesn't win a championship is a disappointment. So and so was a 4 timer in high school and all he ever did in college was AA four times is a common refrain. We have become a pretty negative culture all in all. Nathan Thomasello went 1,3,3,&3 and that just isn't good enough for fans to say he had a great career. Bo Jordan came in as the next great Buckeye but "only" went 3,3,2,&5. Failure.

Fans love to attack their opponents but overall it is usually good natured. I will say that the wrestling community as a whole is probably more fair to the athletes than fans of other sports are to their stars.

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49 minutes ago, balanceseeker said:

So obviously you have a thing against tOSU as most of your posts seem to be disparaging towards them.  I've been a Buckeye wrestling fan for a long time and the fact that there are so many OSU haters out there is really further evidence of how elite they have become.  That said you make a lot of posts that are not supported by facts I think you probably realize this and do it just to piss people off.  Spencer Lee is great and was great before arriving at Iowa.  Attacking Nato is pretty low class.  The guy is a freakin warrior who wrestled his senior year on a torn ACL and still found a way to beat everyone he faced (including Spencer Lee at Big 10's).  I'm sure you'll say that she weren't disparaging Nate just stating a fact, but your not so clever nickname and tone suggest otherwise.  Hating on an entire team because they are good is annoying, calling out and disrespecting one of the classiest dudes in college wrestling because he lost to stud while injured is a complete dickhead move.

come back when your feelings aren't hurt. 

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23 minutes ago, JeanGuy said:

Not sure people are hating on tOSU. In this internet age the motto of Ricky Bobby is true to fans. If you're not first you're last. Everybody that doesn't win a championship is a disappointment. So and so was a 4 timer in high school and all he ever did in college was AA four times is a common refrain. We have become a pretty negative culture all in all. Nathan Thomasello went 1,3,3,&3 and that just isn't good enough for fans to say he had a great career. Bo Jordan came in as the next great Buckeye but "only" went 3,3,2,&5. Failure.

Fans love to attack their opponents but overall it is usually good natured. I will say that the wrestling community as a whole is probably more fair to the athletes than fans of other sports are to their stars.

Yeah, I often get drawn to arguing with that take, because I know how ridiculously hard it is to AA, let alone win it all.  There are plenty of state champs, even multiple time state champs that could barely make starting line ups when they first enter the room, let alone AA.  The amount of improvement necessary is staggering.

Nowadays, the top 10 recruits are more college ready than ever due to the access to camps, personal trainers and super clubs that were much fewer and far between and basically hidden in my time if you didn't know the right people.  Still, even with that, it is equally easy for many others to reach a college room and have the lifestyle click for them.

 

Simply put, Jordan's "weakness" on bottom has allowed him to still go R12, 4th, 6th in 3 different weight classes with only 1 of those being ideal.  Another top 4 finish this year and that IS NOT a failure!

Edited by MSU158

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It depends whether we are talking as fans or not. Parent, big picture, coach, athlete, fan....these are all different hats we can put on before starting a wrestling conversation. Most of the people who freak out on here are wearing an athlete, coach, or big picture hat and being outraged by someone with a fan hat. 

As fans we put people on pedestals, so with that admiration comes harsh harsh standards of criticism. And as long as these don't translate to personal attacks that is absolutely fine. 

Edited by hammerlockthree

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3 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

It depends whether we are talking as fans or not. Parent, big picture, coach, athlete, fan....these are all different hats we can put on before starting a wrestling conversation. Most of the people who freak out on here are wearing an athlete, coach, or big picture hat and being outraged by someone with a fan hat. 

As fans we put people on pedestals, so with that admiration comes harsh harsh standards of criticism. And as long as these don't translate to personal attacks that is absolutely fine. 

I think you like to be grumpy most of the time, just for the hell of it.  But, sometimes, especially this time, you make a clear and great post.  I completely agree with everything you just posted.  Now, please make some snarky response so I can go back to expecting it from you!!!

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28 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Simply put, Jordan's "weakness" on bottom has allowed him to still go R12, 4th, 6th in 3 different weight classes with only 1 of those being ideal.  Another top 4 finish this year and that IS NOT a failure!

Geez, no one ever called Micah Jordan a failure. Your utter lack of context here is astounding. 

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23 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

I think you like to be grumpy most of the time, just for the hell of it.  But, sometimes, especially this time, you make a clear and great post.  I completely agree with everything you just posted.  Now, please make some snarky response so I can go back to expecting it from you!!!

Obviously you've caught on, I'm not here to get along with people....thats boring.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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On 10/17/2018 at 5:28 PM, somedude202 said:

Honestly I think the main reason people "clown" him is because his progression hasn't been linear. 

Disagree.  Case in point, Barlow McGhee's progression was very linear, and people still "clown" him.

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On 10/19/2018 at 2:02 PM, Aviator12 said:

You guys do realize that Micah has a REAL shot to win the title at 149, right? To criticize either one of these guys with how they wrestled these two matches is kind of silly in the big picture isn’t it??

Anybody who qualifies for NCAAs technically has a real shot at winning the title.

I'll be surprised if Micah makes the finals, let alone wins.

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