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NJDan

Russian Revolution

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22 minutes ago, vsnej said:

Just wondering, the guys on team Russia - are they all from there/Russia or are some/any from the other "republics" ?

Some people say that a lot of them are from Dagestan. In fact, they say it over and over.

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44 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Last year, Russia did not win a single gold. This year, they got 4. I guess they turned things around. Even before Snydalaev II.

in 2017 they sent 65 and 70 too immature wrestlers. At 57 Uguev was too weak. In one year he to become a world champ. He lives with that dream be champ for one year and he won (pulled singlet yes) 

   

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41 minutes ago, vsnej said:

Just wondering, the guys on team Russia - are they all from there/Russia or are some/any from the other "republics" ?

Would it blow your mind if I told you that every guy on their team was from a combined region that is roughly the size and population of South Carolina?

Their lineup has 6 from Dagestan, 2 from Chechnya, and 2 from North Ossetia-Alania.

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If the best athletes in South Carolina all wrestled from youth and were retained through the senior level with quality coaching the whole way we could expect similar results.

There is no region of our country where wrestling attracts and retains a majority of the best athletes.  We lose to football, baseball, basketball, etc.  I know we have great athletes in our sport, but on a macro level this is the reason why we are not the consistently dominant force in the world.

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JhRose, I don’t think it’s that simple. I agree with a bunch of what you say but there’s something about culture and spartan training conditions that bring out the best in some athletes. There’s a very interesting book named The Talent Code that discusses cultural and geographic hotbeds of talent in various sports—soccer (Brazilian ghettos), LPGA golf champions (Soruh Korea), etc.—and makes the argument that it’s not just practice and talent, but other factors not often studied such as “ignition” (identifying deeply with a certain elite group or role model) also matter a lot. Whether you agree with the book and it’s research or not, it’s impossible to ignore how fabulously productive a very small percentage of the Russian population that lives in abject poverty has been in wrestling. I highly doubt we’re drawing from a weaker genetic pool even after we lose a ton of talent to football and the more popular sports. 

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This map shows the best concentration of wrestling in the world as of this week. The Russian state of Dagestan (6 out of 10 Russians on the team), next to the country of Georgia who finished 3rd (formerly part of the USSR), capital city Tbilisi. Azerbaijan is right there too, 

Dagestan.JPG

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That brings up a good question, why isn't Armenia on the level of Georgia and Dagestan/Ossetia?  

Also, are the better Turkish wrestlers in a certain area?  Ignorant guess would be more east towards the Caspian as opposed to the more European west near Istanbul. 

Edited by Gantry

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20 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

JhRose, I don’t think it’s that simple. I agree with a bunch of what you say but there’s something about culture and spartan training conditions that bring out the best in some athletes. There’s a very interesting book named The Talent Code that discusses cultural and geographic hotbeds of talent in various sports—soccer (Brazilian ghettos), LPGA golf champions (Soruh Korea), etc.—and makes the argument that it’s not just practice and talent, but other factors not often studied such as “ignition” (identifying deeply with a certain elite group or role model) also matter a lot. Whether you agree with the book and it’s research or not, it’s impossible to ignore how fabulously productive a very small percentage of the Russian population that lives in abject poverty has been in wrestling. I highly doubt we’re drawing from a weaker genetic pool even after we lose a ton of talent to football and the more popular sports. 

This plays out all over the world in many disciplines from art to music to sports. Strong regional traditions of excellence have existed throughout history. Just for kicks check out the great musicians that have came out of Mississippi and dominanted the world in the 20th centery.

Edited by headache

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14 minutes ago, Gantry said:

Also, are the better Turkish wrestlers in a certain area?  Ignorant guess would be more east towards the Caspian as opposed to the more European west near Istanbul. 

There's strong wrestling culture across central Turkey in states like Sivas, Tokat, Amaysa, as well as in the capital Ankara, but there is also strong wrestling in the west in Istanbul, as well as in some of the more mountainous regions closer to Georgia.  So... they're more spread. 

Some of their best guys train out of Istanbul BB, but are originally from more remote areas.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, headache said:

This plays out all over the world in many disciplines from art to music to sports. Strong regional traditions of excellence have existed throughout history. 

Even within the sport in the US, the little state of PA is ridiculously productive. 

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32 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Even within the sport in the US, the little state of PA is ridiculously productive. 

The best explanation that I've heard over the years for "why Pa?" is two-fold.

 

1. There are at least 4 very strong historic programs (1 not so much any more) in 4 different areas of the state that are all now considered hotbeds.

Lehigh (East), PSU (N Central), Pitt (West) and yes, F&M (S Central- look to the late 30s and early 40s). The coaches (mostly HOF types) ventured out to the local high schools and gave clinics to either start up programs or to bolster the few that existed back in the 30s-50s. At that point most people started wrestling in college.

2. The state has a large contingent of what used to be known as State Teachers Colleges. The kids would wrestle in HS, go to college to become a teacher and then coach. The kids they coached did the same thing and this kept levels spiraling up and up.

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2 hours ago, Gantry said:

That brings up a good question, why isn't Armenia on the level of Georgia and Dagestan/Ossetia?  

Also, are the better Turkish wrestlers in a certain area?  Ignorant guess would be more east towards the Caspian as opposed to the more European west near Istanbul. 

Armenians mainly focus on greco.

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A big reason is religion. Armenia is the oldest Christian nation and has more Christians than the USA. Like 94%. Georgia is Christian but way more secular than Armenia. Dagestan, Azerbaijan, Ossetia are over 90% muslim. So there you go. Major crossroad of cultures here. No devout elite Muslim wrestler is probably going to Armenia unless it is their last option.   

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On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:05 PM, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Would it blow your mind if I told you that every guy on their team was from a combined region that is roughly the size and population of South Carolina?

Their lineup has 6 from Dagestan, 2 from Chechnya, and 2 from North Ossetia-Alania.

I think only Khizriev was born in Chechnya.  Moved out of there at age 5.  Chakaev is ethnic Chechen but always lived in Dagestan.

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5 hours ago, PRyan2012 said:

A big reason is religion. Armenia is the oldest Christian nation and has more Christians than the USA. Like 94%. Georgia is Christian but way more secular than Armenia. Dagestan, Azerbaijan, Ossetia are over 90% muslim. So there you go. Major crossroad of cultures here. No devout elite Muslim wrestler is probably going to Armenia unless it is their last option.    

I am under the impression that most elite Georgians (or maybe all?) are natives and not Dagestani imports, am I wrong about this?  If so I don't see what the religious makeup has to do with it.  If Georgia can be an elite wrestling country that is 85% christian and little-to-no imports, what's stopping Armenia?  Or are all the good Georgians part of the muslim minority? 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Gantry said:

I am under the impression that most elite Georgians (or maybe all?) are natives and not Dagestani imports, am I wrong about this?  If so I don't see what the religious makeup has to do with it.  If Georgia can be an elite wrestling country that is 85% christian and little-to-no imports, what's stopping Armenia?  Or are all the good Georgians part of the muslim minority? 

From what I know yes most of the good Geo wrestlers are part of the Muslim minority and influenced by Dagestan as is Azerbaijan wrestlers . Armenia is different-very very christian, even more so than the USA. Not an expert on this subject but was always fascinated with the regions make up and always wondered why elite #2 guys from Russia didn't go to Armenia when many were going to Aze and some to Geo. All three countries are right there. A USA coach at a youth clinic told me it was religion and I think he is right after doing some research.  

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Yeah Russia really came out of nowhere.....

 

I understand the premise of the original post, but the Russians import vodka and KGB spies more than they import wrestlers. 

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On 10/25/2018 at 9:39 AM, Gantry said:

Thanks a bunch, I (foolishly) assumed the Georgians were mostly Christian and didn't import.  Makes more sense now...

your original assumptions were correct, PRyan2012 is incorrect. Georigans may be more secular than Armenians but Georiga's wrestling team is just about all native Georgian and Christian. if their last name ends in -vili or -dze then they are almost definitely ethnic Georigan and Chrisitan. I can't remember the last non-Georgian on the team but there are many ethnic Georgians that wrestle elsewhere like Edisherashvili, the 57kg for Azerbaijan. 

Besides Armenians and Georigian, the Ossetians are almost all Chrisitians, the exception be the Digor people, who speak a dialect of Ossetian but are predominantly Muslim. The most famous of the wrestling Digors would probably be Khadzhimurat Gatsalov, who is also Muslim.

my take on why Armenia is less successful than Georgia is that they are slightly small in population and poorer and also focus more on Greco than freestyle. I think Georigia's freestyle team is better organized, better funded, and probably draws from a greater pool of athletes. just a general feel though 

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I wonder how USA wrestlers would fare if faced with a lifetime addiction to vodka vs a 6 figure income and fame as a wrestler. 

If we only had no serious employment opportunities for our college graduates!

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34 minutes ago, Boompa said:

I wonder how USA wrestlers would fare if faced with a lifetime addiction to vodka vs a 6 figure income and fame as a wrestler. 

If we only had no serious employment opportunities for our college graduates!

as mentioned, most of the russian wrestlers, especially the adherents to Islam, are teetotalers. but yes, potential financial rewards is a huge driver of sports participation. it's a mix of things obviously but in the parts of the Russian Federation that excel at wrestling, being a great wrestler can set you up for life, whereas even if you wanted to become great at a great many other sports, there is no infrastructure and thus no path to achieve the potential financial rewards. 

also regarding Georgia and Armenia, I found this research enlightening. According to Pew, Armenia are Georgia are about equal in their religiosity and are at the top of all of the Chrisitan nations of Europe when it comes various measurements of religious devotion. 

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