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He’s had excuses each world championships he’s competed in that are outside of himself. Last time it was forced par terre. I believe his words were that since it was about to be eliminated (forced pt) nobody would score on him again. 

 

Didnt exactly work out that way...

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29 minutes ago, teach said:

That is what I thought too.  It might be time for him to look inward?  Not even at this level, in college he did the same thing.

That may be the case with him, but so far USA's Greco results speaks for itself.

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A shift in training camp procedures isn’t going to change the results that much.  We’re too far behind the world for a training camp to have that much of a difference. Until we have more of a focus on Greco from the 15-20 age level we’re just not going to be there consistently. We’ll have some shining moments here and there but no consistency. Can’t keep up with programs that have this as a major focus at least when it’s at best secondary for us. 

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3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

A shift in training camp procedures isn’t going to change the results that much.  We’re too far behind the world for a training camp to have that much of a difference. Until we have more of a focus on Greco from the 15-20 age level we’re just not going to be there consistently. We’ll have some shining moments here and there but no consistency. Can’t keep up with programs that have this as a major focus at least when it’s at best secondary for us. 

I saw a lot of Thielke at national/youth tourneys when he was younger. Hasn't he always been a Greco focus from a young age? Same with Ravaughn Perkins. These guys didn't just show up at the trials because they couldn't make the freestyle team. 

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In an ideal world, all of our wrestlers would be exposed to all three styles starting at 3-4th grade and not start to specialize until they are Juniors (or Cadets). Unfortunately, there are not a lot of opportunities (coaching/scholarship/competition) for exposure or to specialize in free/greco relative to folk.

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1 minute ago, Ching said:

In an ideal world, all of our wrestlers would be exposed to all three styles starting at 3-4th grade and not start to specialize until they are Juniors (or Cadets). Unfortunately, there are not a lot of opportunities (coaching/scholarship/competition) for exposure or to specialize in free/greco relative to folk.

True. Many coaches, myself included, don't even know where to begin coaching Greco and are very limited in free, even with all the information out there these days. 

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I agree with LemonPie but this is also Thielke being Thielke, Almost all of Wisconsin wrestling fans had him pegged as the next 4X NCAA Champ, when that blew up it was Davis fault at Wisconsin, It was Forced PT last time he wrestled, he likes to listen to himself talk to the media and it is ALWAYS someone else's fault, It is time to move on!

Edited by whyme25

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38 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I saw a lot of Thielke at national/youth tourneys when he was younger. Hasn't he always been a Greco focus from a young age? Same with Ravaughn Perkins. These guys didn't just show up at the trials because they couldn't make the freestyle team. 

True there are going to be a few individuals here and there. But I’m talking about in terms of a program, where there’s depth, iron sharpens iron, all that kind of stuff. I think that is an area Lindland has done well, pushing it at the age group level and getting high school kids to commit to Greco. To see the fruits of that is going to take time. And not just a short amount of time. 

 

I agree 25 days seems out there. Could be he was thinking more about the training experience with the foreign teams for the future and not just results of this championships. I don’t know...

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

True there are going to be a few individuals here and there. But I’m talking about in terms of a program, where there’s depth, iron sharpens iron, all that kind of stuff. I think that is an area Lindland has done well, pushing it at the age group level and getting high school kids to commit to Greco. To see the fruits of that is going to take time. And not just a short amount of time. 

 

I agree 25 days seems out there. Could be he was thinking more about the training experience with the foreign teams for the future and not just results of this championships. I don’t know...

I am just curious; not trying to be combative. If Bey or Schultz don't get a medal on the senior level will you change your mind? I think with Thielke it is troublesome because he made the olympics at a young age and shows no progress.  That and the fact that freestyle made such a quick turnaround in comparison leads me to believe that there needs to be immediate changes. Thielke saying that they spent the majority of the time on strength and conditioning says to me we have a program that is out of touch with the times. 

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6 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I am just curious; not trying to be combative. If Bey or Schultz don't get a medal on the senior level will you change your mind? I think with Thielke it is troublesome because he made the olympics at a young age and shows no progress.  That and the fact that freestyle made such a quick turnaround in comparison leads me to believe that there needs to be immediate changes. Thielke saying that they spent the majority of the time on strength and conditioning says to me we have a program that is out of touch with the times. 

I have no strong feelings for Lindland one way or the other, but we should temper our expectations for a while. We've started to show glimpses of success at the age groups and when those kids have grown we can score Lindland. Right now he is working with legacy problems.

He is raising the visibility of the style which is good, but he also tries to convert people by tearing down the other styles (like our friend LBJ). This is a massive turnoff, even for a greco guy like me (I'm a three-style fan, one style coach).

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28 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I am just curious; not trying to be combative. If Bey or Schultz don't get a medal on the senior level will you change your mind? I think with Thielke it is troublesome because he made the olympics at a young age and shows no progress.  That and the fact that freestyle made such a quick turnaround in comparison leads me to believe that there needs to be immediate changes. Thielke saying that they spent the majority of the time on strength and conditioning says to me we have a program that is out of touch with the times. 

First, I agree if his description was accurate about the training (mostly conditioning), but I’m not sure I believe that. 

 

To your question, if we had about ten years of solid “recruitment”, where age group level guys were making full commitment to Greco, (and I’m talking more than one or two guys a year), and we still see the same results, then yes I would see it as we have a different problem than I thought. But 1) I don’t think we’ll see that level of commitment and 2) if we did I don’t think we’d see the same results we’re seeing now. But no I’m not going to base it off of Shultz and Bey’s medal count. Like I said, more than one or two guys a year (which Shultz isn’t even making that commitment). Depth is needed to be a consistent program. 

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19 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I am just curious; not trying to be combative. If Bey or Schultz don't get a medal on the senior level will you change your mind? I think with Thielke it is troublesome because he made the olympics at a young age and shows no progress.  That and the fact that freestyle made such a quick turnaround in comparison leads me to believe that there needs to be immediate changes. Thielke saying that they spent the majority of the time on strength and conditioning says to me we have a program that is out of touch with the times. 

Thielke also said they were training with several teams from other countries. Was that just strength and conditioning?

Again, I have no idea what's going here with the Greco team as far as Hancock getting booted from camp and now Thielke's interview. Is 25 days really that harsh as opposed to 10 days? Ok, if they were being worked to death, not getting sufficient sleep and not being able to peak correctly for the Worlds, that's one thing. Was that the case?

And we keep hearing that other countries have very limited resources yet still find a way to win. I'm sorry, but Thielke comes across as an ungrateful prima donna in this interview. Thought world class wrestlers were among the toughest people in the world.  

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5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

First, I agree if his description was accurate about the training (mostly conditioning), but I’m not sure I believe that. 

 

To your question, if we had about ten years of solid “recruitment”, where age group level guys were making full commitment to Greco, (and I’m talking more than one or two guys a year), and we still see the same results, then yes I would see it as we have a different problem than I thought. But 1) I don’t think we’ll see that level of commitment and 2) if we did I don’t think we’d see the same results we’re seeing now. But no I’m not going to base it off of Shultz and Bey’s medal count. Like I said, more than one or two guys a year (which Shultz isn’t even making that commitment). Depth is needed to be a consistent program. 

So we will not be concerned when promising athletes don't pan out? How will we ever build interest and depth if we are not winning medals? Does Germany and China really have that much more depth and potential than us? I just find that hard to believe. My prediction is, if we see no changes, we will get more of the same.

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Not saying won’t be concerned, just saying I don’t see us being consistent on the world stage without a change of culture on Greco in our country. 

 

What changes do you think can get us to being a consistent threat at the world level?  Changes that would overcome the fact that Greco is way behind freestyle and folkstyle in terms of country commitment, and still get us to the top?

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Not saying won’t be concerned, just saying I don’t see us being consistent on the world stage without a change of culture on Greco in our country. 

 

What changes do you think can get us to being a consistent threat at the world level?  Changes that would overcome the fact that Greco is way behind freestyle and folkstyle in terms of country commitment, and still get us to the top?

I don't have the answer. As critical as I have been, I wish I had a solution, but I do not. However, I believe Lindland needs to be held accountable for our teams results. I don't know what he has done to this point to be given a 10 year pass to wait until we accumulate some depth. I think we should see some progress on the senior level, but we are not seeing any except the occasional flash in the pan result. So far Lindland has passed the buck to our athletes and our system. He has even cited toughness and lack of fight, but we do have guys with potential who are doing nothing. I refuse to believe that our athletes just lack toughness.  It makes sense when we are hearing concerns about our training from the athletes, because we are not even competing right now. We don't seem prepared for the world stage. Its not a lack of toughness. More likely its a lack of confidence; confidence in their training and technique. 

Greco is going to be a hard sell in the US no matter what because of folks popularity and its similarity to free, but I think it will be impossible if we don't see at least some sort of consistent progress. 

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my 15 year old goes to the OTC a couple times a week during the year to train greco... he wrestled 6s this year at fargo... he has to bring a partner with him to have anyone to wrestle with...

my 13 year old is a 77lber and wants to go all in on greco right now, but, there is literally no one to train with full time...

that is the real issue... in these other countries you have kids committing to greco at age 10 and rooms full of training partners and coaches and they learn nuances as their bodies develop... kids in the US do not have that type of environment to grow up in... throw in the overwhelming fear and ignorance of greco the resides in this country (as evidenced on this BBS of supposed true wrestling fans) and it is unrealistic top think that is going to change any time soon... 

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13 minutes ago, LJB said:

throw in the overwhelming fear and ignorance of greco the resides in this country (as evidenced on this BBS of supposed true wrestling fans) and it is unrealistic top think that is going to change any time soon... 

They aren't true wrestling fans because we expect something more than we have or because the product isn't fun to watch? Im ready to be a fan of the US greco team, but hard to watch when they are one and done. I think a healthy dose of "we need to change this" is better than "this is just the way it is".

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56 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I don't have the answer. As critical as I have been, I wish I had a solution, but I do not. However, I believe Lindland needs to be held accountable for our teams results. I don't know what he has done to this point to be given a 10 year pass to wait until we accumulate some depth. I think we should see some progress on the senior level, but we are not seeing any except the occasional flash in the pan result. So far Lindland has passed the buck to our athletes and our system. He has even cited toughness and lack of fight, but we do have guys with potential who are doing nothing. I refuse to believe that our athletes just lack toughness.  It makes sense when we are hearing concerns about our training from the athletes, because we are not even competing right now. We don't seem prepared for the world stage. Its not a lack of toughness. More likely its a lack of confidence; confidence in their training and technique. 

Greco is going to be a hard sell in the US no matter what because of folks popularity and its similarity to free, but I think it will be impossible if we don't see at least some sort of consistent progress. 

Can’t disagree with what you say here. I believe we have tough dedicated guys I don’t think that’s the issue. And I agree any head coach has to be accountable for results but we have to keep in perspective. He’s had four years and one thing he has done a good job at is targeting the age group level and getting guys to committ fully to Greco. If that trend continues I believe as a country we will start to see improvement, eventually. But it’s going to take time. We’re way behind the rest of the world.  I believe his vision is right, his execution it’s hard to say at this point. Criticism is fair. But I get a laugh out of comments like “lindland is a joke”...

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Is Lindland perfect? No. But look at where we are compared to before he got there. Seniors may not have improved a ton, but we have improved. Only Sam was uncompetitive. Plus with Roberts, Bey, Hancock, Schultz, Lamont, Berreyesa & Coon we have some quality. Plus, Mayabb and Lindland are offering spots to kids in HS to move to the OTC and concentrate on greco and we have NMU. But for every 10 guys who commit, they are not all going to be world class. Like Willie Saylor said, 10 years ago we only had 3 guys win freestyle matches at worlds. And, when most of your better athletes choose folk/free, it is just going to take a while. There will be bumps in the road but it is not going to happen overnight.

Edited by ConnorsDad
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