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GranbyTroll

FS World Champs DNP

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Anecdotally, it felt like a lot of returning champs failed to medal in FS this year. Off the top of my head:

65(57): Khinchegashvili

65(61): Aliyev

65(61 non olympic): Stieber 

70(66): Safaryan

74(70): Chamizo

125: Akgul

Add in world champs who placed didn't repeat like 57 Takatani,  74 Burroughs, 86 Yazdani, 97 Snyder, and it felt like an upset heavy tournament. Is this an unusual amount for Worlds? Did the new weigh in procedures have anything to do with this? 

 

edit: Added streebler, corrected weight classes

Edited by GranbyTroll

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Draws really matter in freestyle. It is silly, but also the reality based on how they currently run things. 

Chamizo for example - he lost to the 2018 world champ (who beat last year's silver just to make the team) and to a 5 time world champ. His equivalent on the other side (Demirtas) lost to two guys who won their first senior world medals at this tournament. 

65kg had 3 returning world champs so it is hard to separate them all, but there would be far fewer issues like this if they actually seeded the tournament.

Taha is another good example. He lost fair and square once, but had no chance to be brought back in because the #1 guy was also on his side. 

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2 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Chamizo's results had little to do with seeding.   He lost twice, so he shouldn't medal under any system.  Plus, he lost a very winnable match - he beat JB earlier in the year.

You are correct.  The 3 best guys being on the same side of the bracket had nothing to do with it.  It's not like he lost 3-2 to the World Champ in the semis and then lost 4-4 in the bronze medal match to a guy with more medals(as many golds) than fingers on 1 hand(he does have all his fingers).

Edited by MSU158

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34 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

 

You are correct.  The 3 best guys being on the same side of the bracket had nothing to do with it.  It's not like he lost 3-2 to the World Champ in the semis and then lost 4-4 in the bronze medal match to a guy with more medals(as many golds) than fingers on 1 hand(he does have all his fingers).

3 best guys?  The Russian proved he was the best guy this year.  Nobody would have seeded him that way going in.  Chamizo didn't earn one of the top seeds because he wasn't Euro champ and he had at least three losses this year.  JB split matches with Chamizo and didn't bother with most of the seeding tournaments.   Meh.  Nothing to do with seeding is right.  At any rate, the seeds were probably right to begin with.  What were they?

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5 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Chamizo's results had little to do with seeding.   He lost twice, so he shouldn't medal under any system.  Plus, he lost a very winnable match - he beat JB earlier in the year.

You dont feel he could have beaten one of these guys:  Kentchadze, Narykav, or Abdurakmanov?

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3 minutes ago, olddirty said:

You dont feel he could have beaten one of these guys:  Kentchadze, Narykav, or Abdurakmanov?

I feel he could have beaten them. I also feel he could have won euros and beaten jb, but he didn't do either.    He can't blame a bad tournament on a seed.  

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15 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

3 best guys?  The Russian proved he was the best guy this year.  Nobody would have seeded him that way going in.  Chamizo didn't earn one of the top seeds because he wasn't Euro champ and he had at least three losses this year.  JB split matches with Chamizo and didn't bother with most of the seeding tournaments.   Meh.  Nothing to do with seeding is right.  At any rate, the seeds were probably right to begin with.  What were they?

The Russian had a prior win over chamizo and beat last year’s silver to make the team. That alone should’ve given him a high seed. We all knew he was a title contender. Plenty of posts prior to worlds can confirm that

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2 hours ago, Housebuye said:

The Russian had a prior win over chamizo and beat last year’s silver to make the team. That alone should’ve given him a high seed. We all knew he was a title contender. Plenty of posts prior to worlds can confirm that

Agreed.  Plasmodium is going on about seeding when Chamizo was actually the #1 seed.  How he can argue that seeding didn't hurt him when both JB and Sidakov were drawn into him amazes me.

Edited by MSU158

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2 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

What seeding criteria is in place?  How did he fit into that? 

To answer your question, Chamizo actually earned the #1 seed only to have both guys drawn into his side of the bracket.

Here were the top 4 seeds:

74 kg
1 Frank Chamizo Marques (Italy)
2 Bekzod Abdurakhmanov (Uzbekistan) 
3 Daniyar Kaisanov (Kazakhstan) 
4 Akhsarbek Gulaev (Slovakia) 

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The criteria from 2017 only counted worlds, olympics and continentals (2017 criteria).  It must have changed this year since that doesn't correlate with JB not being seeded.  Also, I am surprised seeding can be based on a weight different from the competition weight. 

Nevertheless, I stand by my original assertion that Chamizo lost based on his own performance.  He split with JB this year, so that was winnable for him and the Russian didn't have enough history to be seeded top four so he was a wildcard to be dealt with 

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57 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

The criteria from 2017 only counted worlds, olympics and continentals (2017 criteria).  It must have changed this year since that doesn't correlate with JB not being seeded.  Also, I am surprised seeding can be based on a weight different from the competition weight. 

Nevertheless, I stand by my original assertion that Chamizo lost based on his own performance.  He split with JB this year, so that was winnable for him and the Russian didn't have enough history to be seeded top four so he was a wildcard to be dealt with 

No one is arguing that his losses weren't directly related to his performance.  We are arguing that he was definitely top 3 at the weight and ONLY didn't place due to the other 2 in that top 3 being on his side of the bracket.  The match results definitely support that theory..................

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We can talk about seeding until we're blue in the face... 

Ya just gotta win!

Seriously though... current year's results, and how they had that factored in, is a good start, but super short from where they need to be.  Some guys just aren't as active, and it messes everything up.  The concept that the NCAA is taking by seeding every qualifier is overkill, but awesome.  Going that direction would help significantly.  Also, past or previous year's results should carry weight.  Not the most weight mind you, but, JB, being a multi-time champ, at the same weight class, does deserve some nods in the seeding process, regardless of his activity level.  NOW... if he lost a bunch during the year, since current year results weighs more heavily, then fine, his seed drops.  But... he didn't.  

Point is... we have people who have zero incentive to make changes at the helm on this one, and our opinions are effectively pointless.

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

The criteria from 2017 only counted worlds, olympics and continentals (2017 criteria).  It must have changed this year since that doesn't correlate with JB not being seeded.  Also, I am surprised seeding can be based on a weight different from the competition weight. 

Nevertheless, I stand by my original assertion that Chamizo lost based on his own performance.  He split with JB this year, so that was winnable for him and the Russian didn't have enough history to be seeded top four so he was a wildcard to be dealt with 

The Russian absolutely had seedung criteria for any sane seeding system

He had recent wins over Chamizo and the 2017 world silver

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So did 2018 have a lot of champs DNP compared to other years? Did the two day tournament contribute to any of the champs DNPing? Bonne Rodriguez looked like he was about to die of heart failure in every single match. Is that because he is 35 and trains in Cuba, or because of the morning of weigh ins? 

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

No one is arguing that his losses weren't directly related to his performance.  We are arguing that he was definitely top 3 at the weight and ONLY didn't place due to the other 2 in that top 3 being on his side of the bracket.  The match results definitely support that theory..................

Agree. It is very obvious that seeding/ bracket placement has a huge impact on silver/bronze medals. Four guys per weight earn a medal, if the top three or four guys are all on one side somebody who deserves one is not getting one. I think it is very reasonable to assume Chamizo falls into this category. I don’t think he wrestled bad...just lost to two tough dudes. 

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2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

No one is arguing that his losses weren't directly related to his performance.  We are arguing that he was definitely top 3 at the weight and ONLY didn't place due to the other 2 in that top 3 being on his side of the bracket.  The match results definitely support that theory..................

This discussion goes directly to seeding criteria.  We all seem to have some that we feel are reasonable and then there is uww's that we all seem to feel is unreasonable.  I don't think chamizo earned one of the top seeds, certainly not the one seed.  The turk should be above him, jb should be above him.  Chamizo is a champ, but at a smaller weight and he took losses. 

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Keep the seeding - it is transparent and accessible to every wrestler & coach in the world, and they can make decisions accordingly. Then implement cross-bracket full double elimination wrestlebacks

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3 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Keep the seeding - it is transparent and accessible to every wrestler & coach in the world, and they can make decisions accordingly. Then implement cross-bracket full double elimination wrestlebacks

They broke their own rules by moving JB to the 4th seed

It also is a terrible system, even when they include the prior years medals. Did you know that a gold medal this year will be worth about half the seeding points for 2019 as winning pan ams?

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