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Flying-Tiger

UPDATED USA CAREER RANKINGS

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The group of US wrestlers who won 3+ world-level titles are:

  • John Smith (6)
  • Jordan Burroughs (5)
  • Bruce Baumgartner (5)
  • Kyle Snyder (3)
  • Kevin Jackson (3)
  • Mark Schultz (3)
  • Lee Kemp (3)

Kemp sort of got screwed. He was in his prime in 1980, but did not get to compete at the Olympics due to the boycott.

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14 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Don't forget the reduction to 6 in 2016

Down to six Olympic weights, yes. There were two additional weights that UWW held a competition for that year.

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The first thing that I notice when looking at this is that you factor in the NCAA's. How does that compare to Junior Worlds? How would you have evaluated someone like Pico if he stayed in wrestling? Right now you have more points for Jesse Delgado's career than Pico's and he would be tied with Joe Colon. Junior Worlds seem more relevant. 

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3 hours ago, russelscout said:

The first thing that I notice when looking at this is that you factor in the NCAA's. How does that compare to Junior Worlds? How would you have evaluated someone like Pico if he stayed in wrestling? Right now you have more points for Jesse Delgado's career than Pico's and he would be tied with Joe Colon. Junior Worlds seem more relevant. 

I think one of the problems using specific events in quantifying a ranking systems is that not every wrestler has the same opportunity to compete in the same number of events because they didn't exist for every generation. While todays modern era wrestlers have the advantage in the number events that could earn points they are dealing with changing weight classes and number of weights, evolving rules, diplomaitic decisions, nation building, amateurism rules, and a variety of other factors.

I do think the wrestlers before 1951 don't get the credit they deserve because of lack of opportunity when compiling all time rankings. Think of the different era's of baseball players and how the game has changed when comparing stats from decade to decade. 

In looking to compliment FT rankings I looked for constant events. Olympic Greco (1896), Olympic Freestyle (1904), Greco World Championships (1904), NCAA Wrestling Championships (1928), and Freestyle World Championships (1951) are the oldest. As they are pushing 50 years and into a third generation of wrestlers I can see the argument for including the University World Championships (1968), Junior World Championships (1971), and Cadet World Championships (1975). Not sure what to do with World Cups; USA Wrestling - NUWAY age level national championships, Sr/Jr/So/Fr Nationals but can see the argument as they are national/international events. I do have a hard time quantifying or comparing state championships and placements as not all states are equal.

Found this searchable database when looking for history of University/Junior/Cadet World Championships.

https://unitedworldwrestling.org/database

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Bummer, the Sanders video wouldn't work.  He was one of the first superstars I was able to watch.  They called him unorthodox at the time.  He was amazing.  I was the only person in the world who thought the story of his death was just a little too weird.  He supposedly had set a Russian's hair on fire at a weigh-in.  Tales of chugging vodka in front of his Russian opponent after making weight, were circulating.  He was the first anit-hero as well as funky before funk.  Back in the days when you were a byGawd  United States free willed man representing anything anti-Russian.  I'd like to see if he still looks so amazing  nearly 50 years later.  You inspired me to search youtube.

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Peso said:

Bummer, the Sanders video wouldn't work.  He was one of the first superstars I was able to watch.  They called him unorthodox at the time.  He was amazing.  I was the only person in the world who thought the story of his death was just a little too weird.  He supposedly had set a Russian's hair on fire at a weigh-in.  Tales of chugging vodka in front of his Russian opponent after making weight, were circulating.  He was the first anit-hero as well as funky before funk.  Back in the days when you were a byGawd  United States free willed man representing anything anti-Russian.  I'd like to see if he still looks so amazing  nearly 50 years later.  You inspired me to search youtube.

The video is there, you just have to watch it on youtube (not embedded on this website).

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On 11/4/2018 at 9:50 AM, jchapman said:

Gotta value the non-Olympic World medals lower.  

You seem to forget how freakin' tired you get in a 7 + minute match, with some gorilla on your back pounding you down to the earth if he can, and you can't candy-@$$ it underneath ( I'm talking NCAA points could be more, just saying)

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I edited this because the first thing I should have said is that I think this list is amazing!  I suppose there are a few minor adjustments that most of us would make, but this hits the nail on the head. 

I understand it is tougher to medal today than in the "Mother Russia" era.  If you give more weight for a medal, I would argue that it is closer to the same difficulty for a gold.  It is my belief that you had basically the same teams as now, except to be the "starter" you had to beat all those guys.  Surely the champion of that group would be tougher just from the process.  I mean he had to beat all these guys just to make the team.  Steel hardens steel.    I remember well when It was common knowledge that The Tbilisi Tournament was often tougher than the Worlds because their was more than one Soviet Union wrestler.  I think the best anyone will ever be able to do is be the best of their generation.  In my opinion, we are the greatest I've ever seen period.  Don't think that means, I don't think those champions from other generations wouldn't be competitive now.  In fact, they would be the same innovators, and best conditioned, and most highly recruited guys now, and no doubt much better trained...but they would be the same guys.  I can't give more weight to a world title now than I could in the 70's, 80's or any other decade.  Just can't do it.

 

 

Edited by Peso

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On 11/5/2018 at 11:15 PM, Katie said:

The group of US wrestlers who won 3+ world-level titles are:

  • John Smith (6)
  • Jordan Burroughs (5)
  • Bruce Baumgartner (5)
  • Kyle Snyder (3)
  • Kevin Jackson (3)
  • Mark Schultz (3)
  • Lee Kemp (3)

Kemp sort of got screwed. He was in his prime in 1980, but did not get to compete at the Olympics due to the boycott.

We have 6 active gold medalists, 4 of which aren’t on this list. 

Pretty crazy 

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On 11/15/2018 at 5:08 PM, BadgerMon said:

You seem to forget how freakin' tired you get in a 7 + minute match, with some gorilla on your back pounding you down to the earth if he can, and you can't candy-@$$ it underneath ( I'm talking NCAA points could be more, just saying)

I love NCAA wrestling. The NCAA tournament is THE sporting event of the year for me. that said, simple math says you have to value NCAA finishes lower. Every year come rain or shine we crown 10 NCAA champs. No matter what, someone earns those points. At world or Olympic level freestyle, we've had as few as 0 and as many as 7 golds (think that's accurate anyway). Great NCAA wrestlers never even make world teams, much less place (see Pat Smith). Gotta value the world level accomplishments significantly higher.    

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