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NJDan

What is going on with Princeton

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7 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

It is almost impossible to fail out of an ivy league school, and professors there are pressured to pass even the worst students.

I don't know which Ivy League school you attended, but that certainly wasn't true at Cornell when I was there - our class was 75 coming in, 50 graduated.  I heard that some of the faculty were not happy so many of us got through, the graduation rate was more typically 50%.  I do believe in recent years, though, the trend has been to be more selective in admissions, so the graduation rate is higher.

Edited by red blades

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10 hours ago, lu_alum said:

Princeton 21, No. 8 Lehigh 19
125 – Pat Glory (Princeton) tech fall Luke Resnick (Lehigh) 17-2, 5:08
133 – Brandon Paetzell (Lehigh) major dec. Jonathan Gomez (Princeton) 16-8
141 – Ryan Pomrinca (Lehigh) dec. Marshall Keller (Princeton) 8-7
149 – Matt Kolodzik (Princeton) tech fall Jimmy Hoffman (Lehigh) 17-1, 6:03
157 – Josh Humphreys (Lehigh) dec. Quincy Monday (Princeton) 5-4
165 – Dale Tiongson (Princeton) dec. Cole Walter (Lehigh) 5-3
174 – Jordan Kutler (Lehigh) dec. Travis Stefanik (Princeton) 5-0
184 – Kevin Parker (Princeton) tech fall Chase Gallik (Lehigh) 23-8, 5:12
197 – Patrick Brucki (Princeton) dec. Jake Jakobsen (Lehigh) 7-4
285 – Jordan Wood (Lehigh) Fall Obinna Ajah (Princeton) 1:24

For Lehigh:

125 - No Farro

133 - No Parker

141/149 - No Karam

184 - No Preisch

197 - No Gentile (#2 guy, Jakobsen is decent; 2017 R12 Weiler is still the 3rd option)

 

I think the real turning point in the dual was Cole Walter's loss at 165 - Walter just did not look ready to wrestle - maybe too much of a weight cut?  Kutler also didn't look particularly sharp in a matchup where Lehigh needed to get some bonus points.

On the plus side for Lehigh - Josh Humphreys took the redshirt off; he should be in the rankings very soon.

Early dual, and Lehigh still has time to pull the pieces together, but meantime - Princeton should break into the rankings after this one!

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9 hours ago, WrestleDoc said:

Princeton beat the M-Hawks for the first time ever at Lehigh and the first time since 1968 (50 years). 

Whether Princeton beats Cornell or not, they are getting better every year.  They are methodically building to be a perennial top 10-15 program. If one day Cornell falls below that level, Princeton will beat them.   Using the Iowa match as a measuring stick is  bit silly. There were 4 freshmen in their first dual ever and 4 more first time starters including 2 subs....wrestling the 3rd ranked team in the country IN Carver Hawkeye. If the Wisconsin match happens later in season, I believe Princeton wins.

Regarding the conversation above about standards and admissions.....According to the NCAA Overall Student Athlete 6 year Graduation Rates, Harvard was #1 last year (99%), followed by Princeton at #3(98%). Cornell was 25th at 95%. For comparison purposes, the overall Big Ten 8 year Graduation Rate was 76%. Some of the comments above seem to suggest Princeton is admitting wrestlers with questionable academics. That's simply hilarious. Every wrestler at Princeton could easily qualify for academic scholarships at any state run institution. Classes at Princeton are incredibly difficult. Passing 32-36 classes and earning a degree is something not many people can do. The are no General Studies degrees (or whatever the state schools label the Athlete degrees) offered.

To some on this thread, I'll leave you with this. The next time you are at a wrestling tournament with Princeton and/or Cornell there, take a few minutes and start a conversation with any one of them. I think you will  come away impressed. These kids are the best and brightest American has to offer. They made a decision to take the hard way. They participate in one of the hardest sports while attending one of the most difficult universities on the planet. I applaud them and you should too.

 

I don’t think anyone is really saying they let in wrestlers with questionable academics, just that if they were not being recruited for the team, they might not have got in.  I know part of the formula is being “well-rounded,” but a good wrestler that isn’t high level D1 quality could still be just as well-rounded as one that is, but not get in.

I’ve also heard anecdotes (but of course don’t know for sure) similar to what Billyhoyle is saying...in general the hardest part is getting into the Ivies, but once you’re in I’ve heard the classes aren’t much different than a lot of other schools.  But of course most of the people that go there are still very smart.

 

Edited by 1032004

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I fully understand the formula used for the Ivy schools admission departments but I also know that exceptions are made as they should be.  True Story:  Wrestler attending a good academic high school had a 3.85gpa taking AP & Honors classes.  Wrestler scored a 27 on the ACT and was informed he needed a minimum 28 ACT for the admissions department.  A lady whose family has given major $$$$ to Princeton was informed of the young man and said that she had two (2) admissions exemptions each year but she had already used hers for that particular year.  She phoned a friend with a similar deal and that lady still had one exemption that she had not used for that year and could use on this particular wrestler.  The lady being discussed go her nephew admitted to Princeton with a 21 ACT to play football.  Exceptions are made, even at the Ivy League schools especially when people are able and willing to make very large donations.  Money does talk!

Edited by Bryan

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1 hour ago, red blades said:

I don't know which Ivy League school you attended, but that certainly wasn't true at Cornell when I was there - our class was 75 coming in, 50 graduated.  I heard that some of the faculty were not happy so many of us got through, the graduation rate was more typically 50%.  I do believe in recent years, though, the trend has been to be more selective in admissions, so the graduation rate is higher.

It wasn't Cornell. Was your experience in the past couple decades?  Grade inflation has been a huge issue, but from what I hear even back in the 60s/70s/80s there were plenty of "gut" classes/degrees that the athletes and legacy kids would take. I only knew one person who actually failed out of school, and it was caused by a serious drug problem.  Plenty of people struggled academically, but it was because they showed up as premeds/engineers.  After a semester of awful grades (Cs), they switched to easy areas of study. 

You're right though that overall the student body is getting much better.. My point is that while the admission standards may be higher compared to a couple decades ago on average, the schools still need to be able to admit athletes and legacy kids who are decently smart but not exceptional.  The more $$$ provided by donors, the more leeway is provided for a particular sport or student.  It's not a coincidence that the rise of Princeton (and Cornell) wrestling correlate to particular ultra-successful alumni giving back. 

53 minutes ago, Bryan said:

I fully understand the formula used for the Ivy schools admission departments but I also know that exceptions are made as they should be.  True Story:  Wrestler attending a good academic high school had a 3.85gpa taking AP & Honors classes.  Wrestler scored a 27 on the ACT and was informed he needed a minimum 28 ACT for the admissions department.  A lady whose family has given major $$$$ to Princeton was informed of the young man and said that she had two (2) admissions exemptions each year but she had already used hers for that particular year.  She phoned a friend with a similar deal and that lady still had one exemption that she had not used for that year and could use on this particular wrestler.  The lady being discussed go her nephew admitted to Princeton with a 21 ACT to play football.  Exceptions are made, even at the Ivy League schools especially when people are able and willing to make very large donations.  Money does talk!

I guess it's a question of what the role of a university should be.  In my opinion, the endowments at these places are now high enough that they should  stop selling admission spots to the highest bidder. In its current form, the ivy league universities (and every other top school) enable a system where academic pedigree can be purchased instead of earned. It is like having your parents buy a state title for you without anyone finding out about it. To be clear, I have much more of an issue with the legacy admits than athletics admits (it would be hypocritical to some extent for me to criticize the latter), but I do find certain tactics to be over the line (e.g. I don't think anyone in the ivies should redshirt).  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

 

...in general the hardest part is getting into the Ivies, but once you’re in I’ve heard the classes aren’t much different than a lot of other schools.  

This is often stated but not often considered by those who believe it. It’s like saying the hardest part of wrestling at PSU or Iowa is getting in, but once you’re in, the practices aren’t much different from those of other programs. How capable and competitive your peers are is as important a factor as any other, in both school and sports. 

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Engineering is engineering, whether you are at PSU, Lehigh, or Penn. My buddy has his undergrad at Lehigh and his masters at Penn. I once asked him if he had to put up a new office building for his company whether he'd hire a PSU/Lehigh engineering team, or an Ivy League engineering team. Without hesitation he says, all else being equal they would both createa design that worked BUT he'd hire the PSU/Lehigh engineers because those two would listen more and be mainly concerned with making the building stand all the while keeping on budget while the Ivy League team would be more likely to explode his budget while trying to win industry awards for the building. 

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12 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Engineering is engineering, whether you are at PSU, Lehigh, or Penn. My buddy has his undergrad at Lehigh and his masters at Penn. I once asked him if he had to put up a new office building for his company whether he'd hire a PSU/Lehigh engineering team, or an Ivy League engineering team. Without hesitation he says, all else being equal they would both createa design that worked BUT he'd hire the PSU/Lehigh engineers because those two would listen more and be mainly concerned with making the building stand all the while keeping on budget while the Ivy League team would be more likely to explode his budget while trying to win industry awards for the building. 

Yes, certainly for many applications, creativity and lateral thinking are not necessary, or even desirable qualifications.  Take posting on this forum, for example!

(With apologies to the many REALLY good engineers I have worked with, I hope my sarcasm is evident!)

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

This is often stated but not often considered by those who believe it. It’s like saying the hardest part of wrestling at PSU or Iowa is getting in, but once you’re in, the practices aren’t much different from those of other programs. How capable and competitive your peers are is as important a factor as any other, in both school and sports. 

 

Well admittedly it’s hard to prove.  But honestly I think I might agree with your wrestling analogy.  I haven’t been in any D1 rooms but I’d believe it that the practices likely aren’t much different at PSU (more fun I’m sure) than a lot of other schools, the wrestlers are just already better.  

Edited by 1032004

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

This is often stated but not often considered by those who believe it. It’s like saying the hardest part of wrestling at PSU or Iowa is getting in, but once you’re in, the practices aren’t much different from those of other programs. How capable and competitive your peers are is as important a factor as any other, in both school and sports. 

Good point but the % is much lower of wrestlers who can compete in the Penn State/Iowa  room than students who can compete in an IVY league classroom. I'd  rather take my chances in engineering than have Nolf or Spencer Lee had me my ass everyday.

 

Edited by bp2xbw

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I’m always dubious when people compare schools when they haven’t actually experienced both.  

That said, a great friend of mine transferred from RPI to Cornell (engineering) during undergrad.  He was near a 4.0 at RPI.  He was clear, in no uncertain terms, that Cornell was on another level with regards to the challenge of the classes and the quality of the engineering students academics wise.  He worked hard to stay in the 3.3 range going forward.  Bright guy. 

I found this enlightening.  Not trying to toot Cornell’s horn.  Just that it did tell me that there are differences from school to school.

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16 hours ago, WrestleDoc said:

To some on this thread, I'll leave you with this. The next time you are at a wrestling tournament with Princeton and/or Cornell there, take a few minutes and start a conversation with any one of them. I think you will  come away impressed. These kids are the best and brightest American has to offer. They made a decision to take the hard way. They participate in one of the hardest sports while attending one of the most difficult universities on the planet. I applaud them and you should too.

I applaud them - but I also believe that some of the best America has to offer aren't at Princeton and/or Cornell.  They made a decision to take the hard way to places like Afghanistan Syria, and Iraq.

Prescott_Murach_Phillips_Cardoza_t800.jp


 


 

Edited by HurricaneWrestling2

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I did my grad work at Princeton so I'm familiar with the university. Note that Princeton compared to some of the other Ivies doesn't have quite the same grade inflation problem. In fact, until recently they actually had grade deflation. I'm not sure what type of flexibility athletes get there in terms of admissions, but they don't get special accommodations for classes that I've heard of or witnessed. When I was teaching / grading there we were never encouraged to raise grades or pass students. The athletes are all quite capable students and looking at their work you wouldn't see much of a difference in athlete vs non athlete. The undergrad classes there are pretty rigorous and a lot is expected of them in terms of independent work. Also note that Princeton requires every student to do an undergrad thesis starting their Junior year which is a big academic commitment often meaning spending up to a summer doing fieldwork which takes away from training. No idea on the other ivies, but kudos to the Princeton team IMO.

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