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Do Penn State wrestlers look small for their weights?

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3 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

The good ol Nature vs Nurture debate. 

Mr. Russelscout's one line is my whole point: How you are trying to weave this all together to give credit to Cael for our success internationally is so silly.  What's silly is the lack of perspective and living in the here and now without a sense of the evolution and "chain" of causal events . Cael was/is only one of many links.

 

5 hours ago, russelscout said:

So the answer to my question, are you new to sports is yes. Better athletes win because they are better athletes. I get it, you want to live in this world where everyone 100% accountable for there own success. It's just not the case man. Michael Phelps wins bc of his body type, Ethiopians win long distance for the same reason, and the 100 meter dash... well I could have had all of the heart and positive thinking in the world and I wouldn't have won a single race. Genetics, body type> than positive thinking. This is the case in wrestling too, especially at the highest levels.

The rest of what you are saying... honestly, you have so many over simplifications and assumptions, I am having a hard time taking part in it now . Your last paragraph you said so much without saying anything at all. It's just such a dumb arguement that ignores 30 years of the sport and brings all of the the attention to two individuals. Watch a match from gable days and then the 80s. Now watch one in the 90s. It is constantly changing and is continuing to change. How you are trying to weave this all together to give credit to Cael for our success internationally is so silly. 

Funding of athletes , rule sets that are friendly to us and RTCs are the difference makers. I say that because when we won in 1995 it was pretty much the same reason. We had friendly rules and lots of funding.

 

Take away positive thinking and DNA is just a molecule. With positivity and great coaches its a great beginning but only a beginning. In the end, the greats acknowledge their MENTors

Edited by Cooch1
mistake grammer

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this probably belongs in international forum, but given the turn this thread took towards mental aspect of the sport, I thought some might find this interesting here:

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2018/December/14/Jordan-Burroughs-visits-USA-Wrestling

(kinda long, mental stuff near start though)

Edited by KTG119

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48 minutes ago, Cooch1 said:

Exactly! Better athletes win because they Think are better athletes. Big 5% thinking is what wins the day. Some people just don't get it. As an apt metaphor, the lightest, smallest, most successful atom in nature is hydrogen and proportionately provides the most energetic explosion. It's the least that accomplishes the most. Muscles... every athlete has them. A NCAA winning mentality, not so much.

The irony is that years ago when Iowa was in their dynasty run, they always said something along the lines of "we dont have the best natural athletes, we just train harder than everyone else." Now we have someone saying that success is virtually predetermined by natural ability. So I guess Iowa was lying all those years ago about working harder and not having the best natural athletes? If Cael Sanderson has nothing to do with the success of PSU wrestlers and it's all based on their natural God given talents, then Tom Brands has nothing to do with the success of Spencer Lee, Thomas Gilman, Brent Metcalf, and all the other top level Iowa wrestlers. They were just born that way.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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2 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

The irony is that years ago when Iowa was in their dynasty run, they always said something along the lines of "we dont have the best natural athletes, we just train harder than everyone else." Now we have someone saying that success is virtually predetermined by natural ability. So I guess Iowa was lying all those years ago about working harder and not having the best natural athletes? If Cael Sanderson has nothing to do with the success of PSU wrestlers and it's all based on their natural God given talents, then Tom Brands has nothing to do with the success of Spencer Lee, Thomas Gilman, Brent Metcalf, and all the other top level Iowa wrestlers. They were just born that way.

Who always said that about the Iowa? Find where I said that, please. I have also never said that Cael is not a great coach. He obviously is. He is probably one of the best technical minds in the game. However, at this point you psu fans paint Cael as a martyr if we dont say he is the inventer of wrestling.

I am arguing against the power of positive thinking crap that Cooch1 is spewing. This guy seems to think that this philosophy is new in wrestling and we should all thank Cael for it because it will free us from the bonds of strength and physical ability. Do you believe this stuff too Bigtenfanboy? Or are you so sensitive about everything involving Cael, you can't see past the BS, for an oppurtunity to take a shot at Iowa.

BTFB, do you actually believe that? And do you believe that this philosophy is the major reason for our international success?

 

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3 hours ago, Cooch1 said:

Exactly! Better athletes win because they Think are better athletes. Big 5% thinking is what wins the day. Some people just don't get it. As an apt metaphor, the lightest, smallest, most successful atom in nature is hydrogen and proportionately provides the most energetic explosion. It's the least that accomplishes the most. Muscles... every athlete has them. A NCAA winning mentality, not so much.

Yes, muscles are the only thing that differentiate one athlete from another physically. Jeez man. Ya, some people don't get it. 

Edited by russelscout

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36 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Who always said that about the Iowa? Find where I said that, please. I have also never said that Cael is not a great coach. He obviously is. He is probably one of the best technical minds in the game. However, at this point you psu fans paint Cael as a martyr if we dont say he is the inventer of wrestling.

I am arguing against the power of positive thinking crap that Cooch1 is spewing. This guy seems to think that this philosophy is new in wrestling and we should all thank Cael for it because it will free us from the bonds of strength and physical ability. Do you believe this stuff too Bigtenfanboy? Or are you so sensitive about everything involving Cael, you can't see past the BS, for an oppurtunity to take a shot at Iowa.

BTFB, do you actually believe that? And do you believe that this philosophy is the major reason for our international success?

 

Yes it was the general philosophy of Iowa wrestling during the 80s and 90s. What do you think it ment to be "Gable Trained." I never said YOU said it. Nor did I ever accuse you of saying Cael wasnt a great coach, however do you deny that many Iowa fans say this? If not go over to the hawkeyereport and take a look st their reaction to PSU beating ASU.

In the documentary "The Season" it was said that Iowa prides itself on taking a virtual unknown, riling him up, and unleashing him to knock off top level talent. As for the whole "PSU fans think wrestling was invented in 2011," that's just a lame defense mechanism that Iowa fans like to say to remind everyone that they once were the dominant program of long ago and desperately hold on to past glory. They moan and complain that PSU fans are annoying and obnoxious when very quickly they forget how loud and obnoxious they were a few decades ago.

This "power of positive thinking crap" that you seem to dump on was also a huge part of Dan Gable's coaching success. He got his guys to believe that they could defeat anyone. If you really think this positive thinking is a bunch of crap, you must really think Dan Gable is full of crap.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Those last few years under J Robinson Minnesota seemed to look like "lumberjacks" to intimidate opponents before they stepped on the mat.

A lot of that seems to be gone now. Most of their guys don't look like they spend half their time in the weight room trying to have body builder physiques.

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As for Cael being responsible for the internal success the USA is seeing now? I wouldn't attribute it to Cael, HOWEVER I will say he certainly is changing the image of wrestling in the USA. This very thread was started to point out how PSU wrestlers generally look smaller, implying their guys dont cut a ton a weight, which is quite possibly the biggest complaint the mainstream has on wrestling in general. He encourages his guys to have fun and enjoy their time training and competing to which, surprise surprise the Iowa fans rag on.

You say that these ideas aren't original and the Cael didnt create them. Yes it's true. Cael did not create the idea of encouraging athletes to have fun and enjoy themselves. However is the coach that is implementing it and actually carrying it out. Hes doing the things that coaches are told they're "supposed" to do and actually being successful with it. And that success is pissing off those who say to do these thing, but dont actually do it themselves.

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19 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Yes it was the general philosophy of Iowa wrestling during the 80s and 90s. What do you think it ment to be "Gable Trained." I never said YOU said it. Nor did I ever accuse you of saying Cael wasnt a great coach, however do you deny that many Iowa fans say this? If not go over to the hawkeyereport and take a look st their reaction to PSU beating ASU.

In the documentary "The Season" it was said that Iowa prides itself on taking a virtual unknown, riling him up, and unleashing him to knock off top level talent. As for the whole "PSU fans think wrestling was invented in 2011," that's just a lame defense mechanism that Iowa fans like to say to remind everyone that they once were the dominant program of long ago and desperately hold on to past glory. They mean and complain that PSU fans are annoying and obnoxious when very quickly they forget how loud and obnoxious they were a few decades ago.

This "power of positive thinking crap" that you seem to dump on was also a huge part of Dan Gable's coaching success. He got his guys to believe that they could defeat anyone. If you really think this positive thinking is a bunch of crap, you must really think Dan Gable is full of crap.

Taking a virtually unknown at that time was much easier as we had less natty tourneys and competition for high schoolers, along with lil recruiting rankings. Iowa had a huge collection of talent. Bring in an unpolished stud and watch him shine in that room when the iron sharpens iron. I would argue that it would be much harder to do that now.

When did I say psu fans thought wrestling began in 2011? Look how naturally you divert to your normal defense mechanisms.

So you agree with me then? That Cael didn't invent positive thinking in wrestling. Bc thats what we were debating.

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7 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

As for Cael being responsible for the internal success the USA is seeing now? I wouldn't attribute it to Cael, HOWEVER I will say he certainly is changing the image of wrestling in the USA. This very thread was started to point out how PSU wrestlers generally look smaller, implying their guys dont cut a ton a weight, which is quite possibly the biggest complaint the mainstream has on wrestling in general. He encourages his guys to have fun and enjoy their time training and competing to which, surprise surprise the Iowa fans rag on.

You say that these ideas aren't original and the Cael didnt create them. Yes it's true. Cael did not create the idea of encouraging athletes to have fun and enjoy themselves. However is the coach that is implementing it and actually carrying it out. Hes doing the things that coaches are told they're "supposed" to do and actually being successful with it. And that success is pissing off those who say to do these thing, but dont actually do it themselves.

I would say he is changing the image of college wrestling, not Usawrestling. 

I don't think every athlete thrives under that system is all I was saying. Cael does a great job of recruiting to his philosophy and that is to his credit, but some need a more intense approach. I am an Iowa fan, but I think, you think I am much angrier about Caels success than I actually am.

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29 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Taking a virtually unknown at that time was much easier as we had less natty tourneys and competition for high schoolers, along with lil recruiting rankings. Iowa had a huge collection of talent. Bring in an unpolished stud and watch him shine in that room when the iron sharpens iron. I would argue that it would be much harder to do that now.

When did I say psu fans thought wrestling began in 2011? Look how naturally you divert to your normal defense mechanisms.

So you agree with me then? That Cael didn't invent positive thinking in wrestling. Bc thats what we were debating.

When did I say you said that? I said many Iowa fans say that. You are not included in the "many Iowa fans."

As for saying Cael invented positive thinking. Number 1, yes I agree with you he did not invent it. Number 2, he did not say Cael invented it. Number 3, Cael is actually culitvating and encouraging his athletes to use positive thinking. Hes certainly not saying "I dont feel sorry for Josh Budke. To feel sorry for him would be ludacris"

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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12 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I would say he is changing the image of college wrestling, not Usawrestling. 

I don't think every athlete thrives under that system is all I was saying. Cael does a great job of recruiting to his philosophy and that is to his credit, but some need a more intense approach. I am an Iowa fan, but I think, you think I am much angrier about Caels success than I actually am.

Not just college wrestling. Wrestling as a whole. The mainstream image of wrestling isnt fragmented into college, international, etc. Most people dont know there are multiple styles, they just lump it all into one.

Youth and high school wrestlers as whole are less willing to cut weight. Parents dont let their kids wrestle because of weight cutting horror stories they've heard. Coaches who are teachers get a lot of flack from their coworkers because they're told they're forcing their kids to cut weight. Here we have the current most successful college coach running a program where their guys are doing things the "right way" by not cutting a ton of weight, being happy and enjoying themselves instead of being brooding, angry and aggressive all the time, and many Iowa fans (not you) cant stand it.

Cael is and has always been a relatively quiet person. His interviews going back to his college days hes always been a bit soft spoken. He doesnt ooze this angry aggressive intensity, and for that reason many Iowa fans (not you russlescout) say hes smug and arrogant.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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18 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

When did I say you said that? I said many Iowa fans say that. You are not included in the "many Iowa fans."

As for saying Cael invented positive thinking. Number 1, yes I agree with you he did not invent it. Number 2, he did not say Cael invented it. Number 3, Cael is actually culitvating and encouraging his athletes to use positive thinking. Hes certainly not saying "I have no sympathy for Josh Budke."

Did you think Brands should have had sympathy for Josh Budke? He also said he wanted to see Budke at the top of the heap, but he has to earn it. That is a good message. If you were going use a comment from that documentary, that's not the one I thought you would use.

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10 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Did you think Brands should have had sympathy for Josh Budke? He also said he wanted to see Budke at the top of the heap, but he has to earn it. That is a good message. If you were going use a comment from that documentary, that's not the one I thought you would use.

Yes he should. If he cared about him as a person he would feel bad for him. You can still feel sympathy for someone and still believe you have to earn the things you deserve. Doing so absolutely is not ludacris.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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8 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Yes he should. If he cared about him as a person he would feel bad for him. You can still feel sympathy for someone and still believe you have to earn the things you deserve. Doing so absolutely is not ludacris.

Empathy is appropriate, sympathy doesn't help anyone. How many non starters do coaches need to feel sorry for in a year?

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Empathy is appropriate, sympathy doesn't help anyone. How many non starters do coaches need to feel sorry for in a year?

All the coaches who have athletes that fail to accomplish and have their dreams crushed. That's the job of a coach. I can damn well bet that Dan Gable felt bad for Terry Brands when he didnt win an Olympic Gold Medal and it certainly isnt ludacris that he did.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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34 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Not just college wrestling. Wrestling as a whole. The mainstream image of wrestling isnt fragmented into college, international, etc. Most people dont know there are multiple styles, they just lump it all into one.

Youth and high school wrestlers as whole are less willing to cut weight. Parents dont let their kids wrestle because of weight cutting horror stories they've heard. Coaches who are teachers get a lot of flack from their coworkers because they're told they're forcing their kids to cut weight. Here we have the current most successful college coach running a program where their guys are doing things the "right way" by not cutting a ton of weight, being happy and enjoying themselves instead of being brooding, angry and aggressive all the time, and many Iowa fans (not you) cant stand it.

Cael is and has always been a relatively quiet person. His interviews going back to his college days hes always been a bit soft spoken. He doesnt ooze this angry aggressive intensity, and for that reason many Iowa fans (not you russlescout) say hes smug and arrogant.

I think what drives Iowa fans mad is. 1. Losing sucks, and it's a good amount of bitterness. 2. Psu fans coming on their board and being idiots (only some) 3. People consistently making grand claims about Cael, some true, some ridiculous like some things Cooch is trying to say. 

Let's face it is hard to have an opinion outside of PSU is the greatest without a huge backlash. I thought Valencia would win, possibly by major. Not because I don't like Hall, but bc I am a fan of the sport. Appearantly I am a dumbass on this board, despite the fact IMO Valencia was looking better every time. PSU fans make it easy to hate them, not because they win (although it's definitely part of it), but because their fans make it impossible to have a rational discussion without someone getting defensive.

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I think what drives Iowa fans mad is. 1. Losing sucks, and it's a good amount of bitterness. 2. Psu fans coming on their board and being idiots (only some) 3. People consistently making grand claims about Cael, some true, some ridiculous like some things Cooch is trying to say. 

Let's face it is hard to have an opinion outside of PSU is the greatest without a huge backlash. I thought Valencia would win, possibly by major. Not because I don't like Hall, but bc I am a fan of the sport. Appearantly I am a dumbass on this board, despite the fact IMO Valencia was looking better every time. PSU fans make it easy to hate them, not because they win (although it's definitely part of it), but because their fans make it impossible to have a rational discussion without someone getting defensive.

Let's do a little exercise here.... replace PSU with Iowa and Cael with Gable. Travel back in time 20 years ago.

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11 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

All the coaches who have athletes that fail to accomplish and have their dreams crushed. That's the job of a coach. I can damn well bet that Dan Gable felt bad for Terry Brands when he didnt win an Olympic Gold Medal and it certainly isnt ludacris that he did.

You don't see a difference? When Tom says you have to earn it, it's not that he deserves it. It sounds like he is saying, he want to see Budke succeed, but Budke is not doing the necessary things, so he doesn't feel sorry for him. Why feel sorry for the people who haven't done the things you need to do to reach their goal? 

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

You don't see a difference? When Tom says you have to earn it, it's not that he deserves it. It sounds like he is saying, he want to see Budke succeed, but Budke is not doing the necessary things, so he doesn't feel sorry for him. Why feel sorry for the people who haven't done the things you need to do to reach their goal? 

How do you know Budke didnt do everything he possibly could? What if he just wasnt physically gifted enough? You can still feel sorry for that person. It doesnt mean you hand over the things they want. And you certainly dont go on National TV and say, "I dont feel sorry for him 1 bit. To do so would be ludacris."

As for Terry, he didnt do the necessary things to deserve a gold medal.. IE make it to the gold medal match, therefore he didnt deserve it. Gable still felt bad for him. So no I dont see the difference.

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

Let's do a little exercise here.... replace PSU with Iowa and Cael with Gable. Travel back in time 20 years ago.

Hey, I'm not saying there would be any difference. Probably worse 20 years agl, since the sport was really starting to grow from a spectator side. I understand both sides, but I still don't like it. Especially right now, when it feels like there are so many things that feel promising with guys like burroughs, Snyder, dake, Taylor and all of the young guys. For someone to want to give the majority of the credit to Cael, well it gets sickening after awhile.

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Hey, I'm not saying there would be any difference. Probably worse 20 years agl, since the sport was really starting to grow from a spectator side. I understand both sides, but I still don't like it. Especially right now, when it feels like there are so many things that feel promising with guys like burroughs, Snyder, dake, Taylor and all of the young guys. For someone to want to give the majority of the credit to Cael, well it gets sickening after awhile.

Much like Gable was given the majority of credit for all things great about wrestling 20 years ago!

Cael Sanderson is the modern day Dan Gable. He is the face of wrestling (yes all of wrestling) much Dan Gable was the face of wrestling during the 80s and 90s.

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2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

How do you know Budke didnt do everything he possibly could? What if he just wasnt physically gifted enough? You can still feel sorry for that person. It doesnt mean you hand over the things they want. And you certainly dont go on National TV and say, "I dont feel sorry for him 1 bit. To do so would be ludacris."

As for Terry, he didnt do the necessary things to deserve a gold medal.. IE make it to the gold medal match, therefore he didnt deserve it. Gable still felt bad for him. So no I dont see the difference.

But you get what Tom was trying to say right? Your not lost on the fact that he cared about the kid and wanted him to succeed right?

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Just now, russelscout said:

But you get what Tom was trying to say right? Your not lost on the fact that he cared about the kid and wanted him to succeed right?

I get what he was saying.

He said, he does not feel sorry for Josh Budke one bit and to do so would be ludacris. He has to earn the things he gets.He said he would like nothing more in the world for Budke to be successful. The thing that you seem to be ignoring is those things are not mutually exclusive. You CAN/SHOULD feel bad for the kid you coach who doesnt accomplish their dreams even if they didnt earn/deserve it. Doing so is NOT ludacris.

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It seems to me that I cannot think of a single recent PSU wrestler who was big for the weight.  There have been a few very musclebound wrestlers like Molinaro, Brown or McIntosh (who was small for 197) but all were quite short -- usually 2-3 inches shorter than their opponents.
Retherford was clearly very strong but did not look big and was also usually shorter than his opponents.  
Some of Penn State's best like Taylor, Ruth, Wright, Nolf, Hall, and Nickal hardly have any visible muscle definition yet none of them seemed to struggle with strength.
The one exception I think is Joseph who looks thick at 165.
Do PSU guys just not cut as much weight compared to other teams (e.g. Ohio State, Ok St, Iowa, Minny)?

Mark Hall is huge, just bow-legged. He would be 6’1” if his legs were straightened out.


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