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ESPN reporting on wrestling referee incident

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But where would be th captivating news story in that, Hurricane?

I’d like to see BBC investigate and do a story on this. That’s about the only media outlet I trust to report without political bias or agenda. Unfortunately theyre on the other side of the pond and it won’t happen. 

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46 minutes ago, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

As I understand it, your argument is that the the intent of the hair rule is to unfairly exclude Blacks.  However, when one actually looks at the history of the rule, it seems to be one of inclusion - not exclusion as you suggest.

For decades the only way to effectively comply with the hair rule was via a hair cut.  However, the rule was eventually changed to allow the use of a hair cover.  Therefore, an accommodation was made that allowed wrestlers to keep their long hair, dreadlocks, etc.

 Unfortunately, the above described solution proved imperfect as the covers kept falling off or getting tangled up in ear guard straps.  A few wrestling gear manufacturers solved this problem by designing covers that could be securely attached to the ear guards.  The NFHS  liked this innovation and, in 2015, they made a new rule that required all covers be so attached.  Seems entirely reasonable rather than racist to me. 

There was no need for a rule against long hair because no boys had long hair until the counterculture movement of the '60's.  The establishment (that makes the rules) didn't approve of the hippies so they did their best to exclude them from everything; sports, job interviews, school, etc.  Long hair (for boys) was considered taboo and unprofessional.  Simultaneously, the new commitment of blacks to embrace their heritage in the '60's led to more natural hairstyles for people of color.  Since those longer hairstyles were more closely tied to their traditional cultures than the anti-establishment protest hair of whites during that time, whites were far less emotionally invested in their hair and were more willing to part with it when necessary.  People of color have continued to attempt to mitigate the legacy of chattel slavery in this country in many ways; fashion, music, hairstyles, literature, etc.  Even if the intent of the rule was not to exclude, if the rule excludes in practice because people of color are more likely to feel a cultural attachment to their longer hairstyles, then the rule is exclusionary albeit unintentionally.  Allowing for head coverings is an accommodation, but why is the accommodation necessary at all?  My point is that the long hair prohibition is ridiculous, given the dangerous and physical nature of the sport.  Professional hockey, football, basketball, etc. have all managed to survive just fine with more and more players having long hair.  It's a rule that that solves a problem that doesn't really exist, and if it disproportionately affects people of color, then it is doubly bad.

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Long hair is all over the place during a match and can become gross.  Why do people with long hair in other combat sports braid it and artificially restrict their long hair when not required (think UFC)?

And when your hair, whether long or short is used (or potentially used) as a weapon against me... that's where your right to have a hairstyle of your choosing ends and my right begins.  (ex. Members of  96 Olympic Greco talking about shaving  heads so they could use the stubble to cause abrasions to opponents)

 

Not a lot of issues in the NFL or hockey with someone rubbing their abrasive stubble or hair into your cheekbone.  Or basketball for that matter.

Edited by AHamilton

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2 hours ago, tigerfan said:

Even if the intent of the rule was not to exclude, if the rule excludes in practice because people of color are more likely to feel a cultural attachment to their longer hairstyles, then the rule is exclusionary albeit unintentionally.  Allowing for head coverings is an accommodation, but why is the accommodation necessary at all?  My point is that the long hair prohibition is ridiculous, given the dangerous and physical nature of the sport.  Professional hockey, football, basketball, etc. have all managed to survive just fine with more and more players having long hair.  It's a rule that that solves a problem that doesn't really exist, and if it disproportionately affects people of color, then it is doubly bad.

Perhaps you missed olddirty's post, but he trains daily with a guy who has dreadlocks and says it "destroys" his face.  Interestingly, he agrees with you that the prohibition against long hair is a stupid rule.  But he recognizes the need for rules to address "dreadlocks, hard stubble, and tons of gel/product."  So, contrary to your assertion, prohibition against the foregoing (or requiring proper covering) does indeed address real problems.  

Additionally, your other rationale that such prohibitions are ridiculous "given the dangerous and physical nature of the sport" is nonsensical.  Basically, you're advocating that we shouldn't take some common sense safety measures for the protection of the participants because its already a tough sport.  If that's a valid line of reasoning, why not also allow a little eye gouging, scratching and/or biting?  Shouldn't be a big deal since wrestling's already dangerous, right?

Edited by HurricaneWrestling2

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Any coincidence in the timing of the rise of females in the sport and the introduction of hair netting rules? Perhaps the rule was initially aimed at issues more pronounced in female wrestling but the rationale was deemed equally appropriate for males (some of whom wanted to keep their long locks)? Certainly, some rules might infringe upon an individual's personal beliefs, e.g wrestling on the weekend, etc. But with regard to the issue of long hair, I think wrestling has done a good job of accommodating any individual who has, and wants to keep, his or her long hair and still compete. This should be a non-issue, IMO.

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12 hours ago, npope said:

Perhaps the rule was initially aimed at issues more pronounced in female wrestling but the rationale was deemed equally appropriate for males (some of whom wanted to keep their long locks)? Certainly, some rules might infringe upon an individual's personal beliefs, e.g wrestling on the weekend, etc. But with regard to the issue of long hair, I think wrestling has done a good job of accommodating any individual who has, and wants to keep, his or her long hair and still compete. This should be a non-issue, IMO.

"Any coincidence in the timing of the rise of females in the sport and the introduction of hair netting rules?"   Yes, especially in NJ where the females are going to compete in their first state tourny this year.

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Here is a quote from a member of Buena Vista’s council, made at a special meeting yesterday regarding the situation. Unfortunately I think it matches the mindset of many around the country. Pay particular attention to the last sentence, unfortunately most are not concerned with all the facts in the scenario, but instead want to push the drama:

"The referee, I wanted to strangle him when I saw that (video on SNJ Today), I really did," Martinelli said. "I understand there were rules and regulations that he had to follow. Whether he followed them correctly or not, I don't really care.”

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5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Here is a quote from a member of Buena Vista’s council, made at a special meeting yesterday regarding the situation. Unfortunately I think it matches the mindset of many around the country. Pay particular attention to the last sentence, unfortunately most are not concerned with all the facts in the scenario, but instead want to push the drama:

"The referee, I wanted to strangle him when I saw that (video on SNJ Today), I really did," Martinelli said. "I understand there were rules and regulations that he had to follow. Whether he followed them correctly or not, I don't really care.”

Simply stunning, isn't it? Seriously.

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Here is a quote from a member of Buena Vista’s council, made at a special meeting yesterday regarding the situation. Unfortunately I think it matches the mindset of many around the country. Pay particular attention to the last sentence, unfortunately most are not concerned with all the facts in the scenario, but instead want to push the drama:

"The referee, I wanted to strangle him when I saw that (video on SNJ Today), I really did," Martinelli said. "I understand there were rules and regulations that he had to follow. Whether he followed them correctly or not, I don't really care.”

Guess what, neither does the twitterverse or the mass media. Rules and regulations go against their narratives.

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15 hours ago, tigerfan said:

Professional hockey, football, basketball, etc. have all managed to survive just fine with more and more players having long hair.  It's a rule that that solves a problem that doesn't really exist, and if it disproportionately affects people of color, then it is doubly bad.

Couple of things:

1.When I wrestled in high school and college,which was,during  the "counter culture" days, the rules said no hair below the ear lobe and clean shaven.

I don't remember any wrestler,white or black,including my team mates with "Afros"  ever mentioning it.

You got a haircut  when you needed to and shaved.

2.In high school I got selected to got to Boys State.

Before you went,you were given a list of rules.

One was no hair over your ears.

You either followed the rule, or  didn't get to go.

3.You can't really compare the "contact" in wrestling to hockey or basketball.

4.if you want to use pro football as a comparison,as far as I know,hair below the helmet is

considered part of the uniform.

That means it can be grabbed,pulled,you name it.

 

 

 

 

Edited by rpbobcat

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Here is a quote from a member of Buena Vista’s council, made at a special meeting yesterday regarding the situation. Unfortunately I think it matches the mindset of many around the country. Pay particular attention to the last sentence, unfortunately most are not concerned with all the facts in the scenario, but instead want to push the drama:

"The referee, I wanted to strangle him when I saw that (video on SNJ Today), I really did," Martinelli said. "I understand there were rules and regulations that he had to follow. Whether he followed them correctly or not, I don't really care.”

This is pretty bad - does nothing to promote any sort of spirit of cooperation or understanding, on the contrary, seems to only fan the flames.  Sadly, this is indicative of the attitude on both sides of the political spectrum these days.

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We live in a society that has determined "social justice" is more important than personal accountability and following the rules. Things go downhill when you cater to the lowest common denominator and that seems to be the new American way. Following the rules as an official now means you can be subject to civil rights investigations. why would anyone want to sign up for that? We already have a lack of good officials in this sport and this is certainly not going to help that situation. I really hope this family enjoys all the spotlight their son and coach's irresponsibly and ignorance to the rules has earned them. 

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3 minutes ago, Perry said:

We live in a society that has determined "social justice" is more important than personal accountability and following the rules. Things go downhill when you cater to the lowest common denominator and that seems to be the new American way. Following the rules as an official now means you can be subject to civil rights investigations. why would anyone want to sign up for that? We already have a lack of good officials in this sport and this is certainly not going to help that situation. I really hope this family enjoys all the spotlight their son and coach's irresponsibly and ignorance to the rules has earned them. 

The governor of NJ, and the face of USA Wrestling disagree with you.

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44 minutes ago, red blades said:

This is pretty bad - does nothing to promote any sort of spirit of cooperation or understanding, on the contrary, seems to only fan the flames.  Sadly, this is indicative of the attitude on both sides of the political spectrum these days.

Wrestling is a niche sport. The general public probably knows next to nothing about our rules and wrestling culture. At this point, this thing has taken a life of it's own. Fueled by the media because of the antiquated  quote" it sells papers".   The  perception of the general public is, racist ref humiliates and traumatizes black youth by forcing him to cut his dreds   and disrespects his culture in front of spectators. Yes, racism sells, regardless of the circumstances.

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Here is a quote from a member of Buena Vista’s council, made at a special meeting yesterday regarding the situation. Unfortunately I think it matches the mindset of many around the country. Pay particular attention to the last sentence, unfortunately most are not concerned with all the facts in the scenario, but instead want to push the drama:

"The referee, I wanted to strangle him when I saw that (video on SNJ Today), I really did," Martinelli said. "I understand there were rules and regulations that he had to follow. Whether he followed them correctly or not, I don't really care.”

Lynch mob mentality.

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5 minutes ago, bp2xbw said:

Wrestling is a niche sport. The general public probably knows next to nothing about our rules and wrestling culture. At this point, this thing has taken a life of it's own. Fueled by the media because of the antiquated  quote" it sells papers".   The  perception of the general public is, racist ref humiliates and traumatizes black youth by forcing him to cut his dreds   and disrespects his culture in front of spectators. Yes, racism sells, regardless of the circumstances.

Gotta agree. But maybe the media did the right thing for the wrong reason, their ratings. In the long term, this situation may be resolved before the kid walks out on the mat.

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I believe the incident happened on the evening of Wednesday Dec 19, 2016. As late as Dec 26, I saw coverage on Evening News (I think NBC, maybe ABC). Then more coverage this morning, Thursday the 27th, on CBS morning news.

One thing I think, I hope, is that we all would like to see more broadcast TV coverage of folkstyle wrestling, both HS and College.

I think we should be contacting the major networks, and even local stations to suggest ~"Hey, if you think this incident at a HS wrestling meet was so important as to cover as a news item for over a week, should not you be covering the sport outside of one controversial event"~. Admittedly, I am not, at this point unsure who to contact, and by what method the sport should be covered. Obviously, we would all like more college duals and tournaments. To my knowledge, NBC has never covered HS or College wrestling. CBS, in connection with the NCAA basketball tournament coverage, "covered" the NCAA finals for a few years between Wide World of Sports and ESPN.  I guess there has been some coverage by Regional Fox Sports Networks, Turner (TBS CNN etc) I don't know of any, although Coy Wire, 2 time PIAA finalist, is a prime CNN sports reporter,     

 

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We live in a society that has determined "social justice" is more important than personal accountability and following the rules. Things go downhill when you cater to the lowest common denominator and that seems to be the new American way. Following the rules as an official now means you can be subject to civil rights investigations. why would anyone want to sign up for that? We already have a lack of good officials in this sport and this is certainly not going to help that situation. I really hope this family enjoys all the spotlight their son and coach's irresponsibly and ignorance to the rules has earned them. 

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2 hours ago, Perry said:

We live in a society that has determined "social justice" is more important than personal accountability and following the rules. Things go downhill when you cater to the lowest common denominator and that seems to be the new American way. Following the rules as an official now means you can be subject to civil rights investigations. why would anyone want to sign up for that? We already have a lack of good officials in this sport and this is certainly not going to help that situation. I really hope this family enjoys all the spotlight their son and coach's irresponsibly and ignorance to the rules has earned them. 

The fact is, this story has been picked up by the news outlets because this is a polarizing topic, gaining opinions from both sides of the spectrum; social justice vs the rationalists. The fact that the guy said something racist in the past is perfect fuel for the flame. The former can take this and create whatever narrative it wants to make based on the fact that a white guy, who said some racist stuff once, enforced an arbitrary rule on a black kid. Thats all that matters. The latter can use as many facts and rules as it wants, but in the end it is defending a guy who said some racist stuff once. Of course you have "experts" like Jordan Burroughs and even Drew Carey(who claims to be a huge greco roman fan, I wonder how he feels about Lindlands perfomance as head coach) jumping in the on the outrage while ignoring several of the the components involved. It is really too bad, because I think this is something that we should be evaluating to come to some kind of conclusion on the role of the ref. I have seen many wrestlers, albeit white kids, get their hair cut with tape scissors. Was that really necessary? What about their identity Jordan Burroughs? Do you have sympathy for them? How about the times I have seen a refs lecture kids and completely abuse their power in front of a crowd? Do you have sympathy for their embarrassment in front of their families? Nah, lets not worry about that. Lets burn this guy at the stake and then move on to the next thing that is trending on twitter. 

I realize that is somewhat of a tu quoque fallacy, but this is not an isolated incident, despite what JB says. It is worth looking at the entire landscape of wrestling as a whole for perspective. Kids are forced to cut their hair all the time. Refs are out of line all the time. I wonder if the ref in question has ever made a white kid cut his hair? This is hypocritical for us to say that it was all good, until now; now that race is involved. 

Maybe my point is that this isn't a zero some game. It doesn't have to be "its the rules and thats it so its cool" or "its just racist and its horrible". Maybe its not racist and the rules and the role of the official need to be tweaked a little too. Maybe this guy is a scum bag but also just called it inline with the current rules.  He may have used the n-word before, but does he have a history of screwing over black athletes?

Am I being a passive racist right now for not accepting the twitter narrative? I am definitely sick of twitter outrage culture and mob mentality.

Edited by russelscout

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