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ESPN reporting on wrestling referee incident

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3 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Could have. 

My point is this whole blow up could have been avoided by allowing the kid use the hair cover that he had.

Why have rules if they aren’t enforced?  

 

The whole point of the affixed headgear head coverings is to prevent the problem of having to constantly readjust the head coverings that shift under the headgear while wrestling. 

Remember all the boos that rained down on Bubba when he wrestled Taylor in the Finals and had to fix his head covering?  

I don’t believe those were racist people who were booing.  

This whole thing seems to be blown out of proportion.  

 

But it did did make me wonder:  if an athlete had proper head covering them in the match the head covering was ripped and could no longer be used. What would the remedy be?  

I assume injury time would start until they could get proper equipment or get hair that was compliant to the rule. And if they couldn’t in the allotted time they would forfeit. 

Edited by Pinnum

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I had a teammate (white guy) cut his hair matside at a tournament.  Of course that’s years ago and before Camera phones.

Was compliant early in the season but as the season went on it got too long.   

No one thought anything of it.  

 

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33 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

Why have rules if they aren’t enforced?  

 

The whole point of the affixed headgear head coverings is to prevent the problem of having to constantly readjust the head coverings that shift under the headgear while wrestling. 

Remember all the boos that rained down on Bubba when he wrestled Taylor in the Finals and had to fix his head covering?  

I don’t believe those were racist people who were booing.  

This whole thing seems to be blown out of proportion.  

 

But it did did make me wonder:  if an athlete had proper head covering them in the match the head covering was ripped and could no longer be used. What would the remedy be?  

I assume injury time would start until they could get proper equipment or get hair that was compliant to the rule. And if they couldn’t in the allotted time they would forfeit. 

Unfortunately that's not how the world works anymore (if ever).

This ref applied the rules as written and is getting blasted by the mainstream media. Are you telling me he would be getting blasted by the otherside had he not enforced the rule to the letter of the law? Had he just let the kid wrestle with the hair cover he had with him, he wouldn't be all over social media and the news being called a racist.

Have you ever been pulled over for speeding or driving through a stop sign only to be let off with a warning?

Why have traffic laws if they aren't enforced? 

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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25 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

 

Remember all the boos that rained down on Bubba when he wrestled Taylor in the Finals and had to fix his head covering?  

I don’t believe those were racist people who were booing.

I believe a lot of them were racist people who were booing.

Unfortunately wrestling has way too many of these kinds of people, especially in the older generations. I’ve also come across a decent amount of refs who are also on a narcissistic power trip and wish they were cops.

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1 hour ago, BigTenFanboy said:

In 9th grade I had a ref make me cut the front of my hair because it was 1/2 cm past my eye brows. He told me and my coach at weighins and made a note of it on the weighin sheets to check with him prior to the dual starting. Most refs I've seen do this for nails and hair.

 

Again, it is the wrestler/coach’s responsibility to show the ref the special equipment.   My guess is maybe the kid didn’t have the headgear/cover at weigh ins so he just said “make sure you have the proper cover when you come out to wrestle.”   I’d estimate this guy has probably been reffing 40+ years.  I think he knows the rules.

I think a good comparison is probably doctors notes and ringworm.  You’re supposed to show those at weigh ins too.  But I know some kids will hold it back hoping they pass the skin check anyway (or are afraid their doctors note could get overruled which is possible). But I’ve seen it happen where a ringworm doesn’t get noticed until wrestling has started, but then they say “oh I have a doctors note.”  Technically I believe they could be DQ’d for not furnishing it at weigh ins.  Some refs might enforce that, some might not.

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6 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Unfortunately that's not how the world works anymore (if ever).

This ref applied the rules as written and is getting blasted by the mainstream media. Are you telling me he would be getting blasted by the otherside had he not enforced the rule to the letter of the law? Had he just let the kid wrestle with the hair cover he had with him, he wouldn't be all over social media and the news being called a racist.

Have you ever been pulled over for speeding or driving through a stop sign only to be let off with a warning?

Why have traffic laws if they aren't enforced? 

 

He wouldn’t be going viral, but he potentially still could’ve gotten in trouble.  As someone else mentioned, maybe the opposing coach complained, thus forcing his hand.  I’ve even seen it happen where they won’t complain about something when it happens, but will after the fact.

People should have an issue with the rule itself, not refs enforcing it as written. 

To use your analogy, this would be like someone complaining about getting a ticket for going 5 MPH over the speed limit.  

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

I had a teammate (white guy) cut his hair matside at a tournament.  Of course that’s years ago and before Camera phones.

Was compliant early in the season but as the season went on it got too long.   

No one thought anything of it.  

 

Even with camera phones, Twitter, etc., I doubt that anything would have come of this incident had it not involved an old white guy and  a young black kid.  The media loves to stir up racial controversy whether actual racism is involved or not - particularly when these demographics are involved.   

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7 minutes ago, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

Even with camera phones, Twitter, etc., I doubt that anything would have come of this incident had it not involved an old white guy and  a young black kid.  The media loves to stir up racial controversy whether actual racism is involved or not - particularly when these demographics are involved.   

Exactly, so why get mixed up in a problem like this when it can easily be avoided.

Those that are saying the ref would have got in trouble had he let things go, well look at his situation now. He DIDNT let it go and is now in a whole world of trouble.

Even IF the governing body decides that the ref was right and can continue officiating (which I doubt will happen due to PR reasons), do you honestly think he will be able to enter a school gym ever again? Hes branded for life as a racist. All could have been avoided if he wasnt a stickler for what most here agree is a stupid rule.

I bet you he would rather get a slap on the wrist from the rules governing body (that most likely wouldn't have come anyways) for allowing the kid to wear an illegal hair cover than to be dealing with this right now.

If you were a ref what would you rather be dealing with?

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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10 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

 

He wouldn’t be going viral, but he potentially still could’ve gotten in trouble.  As someone else mentioned, maybe the opposing coach complained, thus forcing his hand.  I’ve even seen it happen where they won’t complain about something when it happens, but will after the fact.

People should have an issue with the rule itself, not refs enforcing it as written. 

To use your analogy, this would be like someone complaining about getting a ticket for going 5 MPH over the speed limit.  

 

 

A speed limit is a hard and fast number. It's written law. People have gotten speeding tickets for going 5mph over the limit. If a cop gave you a ticket for going 5mph over the limit would you be mad at him? I certainly would. Would you be grateful if he let you off with a warning? I would as well!

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Free speech is the law as well. I'm all for free speech, but also recognize that your free speech has social not legal implications/repercussions. Innocent until proven guilty is only valid in a legal situation. Guilty until proven innocent is a perfectly valid social implication. You dont have to like it. Heck I hate it, but it's how the world works.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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10 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

 

Even IF the governing body decides that the ref was right and can continue officiating (which I doubt will happen due to PR reasons), do you honestly think he will be able to enter a school gym ever again? Hes branded for life as a racist. All could have been avoided if he wasnt a stickler for what most here agree is a stupid rule.

I bet you he would rather get a slap on the wrist from the rules governing body (that most likely wouldn't have come anyways) for allowing the kid to wear an illegal hair cover than to be dealing with this right now.

If you were a ref what would you rather be dealing with?

 

Obviously not to this extent but his previous incident was all over local media, yet he still seemed to get through the past 2 seasons without incident.

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14 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Free speech is the law as well. I'm all for free speech, but also recognize that your free speech has social not legal implications/repercussions. Innocent until proven guilty is only valid in a legal situation. Guilty until proven innocent is a perfectly valid social implication. You dont have to like it. Heck I hate it, but it's how the world works.

Huh?

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1 hour ago, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

Even with camera phones, Twitter, etc., I doubt that anything would have come of this incident had it not involved an old white guy and  a young black kid.  The media loves to stir up racial controversy whether actual racism is involved or not - particularly when these demographics are involved.   

The ref's documented racist past definitely plays a role here.

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1 hour ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Exactly, so why get mixed up in a problem like this when it can easily be avoided.

Those that are saying the ref would have got in trouble had he let things go, well look at his situation now. He DIDNT let it go and is now in a whole world of trouble.

Even IF the governing body decides that the ref was right and can continue officiating (which I doubt will happen due to PR reasons), do you honestly think he will be able to enter a school gym ever again? Hes branded for life as a racist. All could have been avoided if he wasnt a stickler for what most here agree is a stupid rule.

I bet you he would rather get a slap on the wrist from the rules governing body (that most likely wouldn't have come anyways) for allowing the kid to wear an illegal hair cover than to be dealing with this right now.

If you were a ref what would you rather be dealing with?

Depends on what type of referee I am.  For the sake of argument lets assume I'm the following:

  1. A fair and impartial referee who enforces the rules without regard to race, etc.
  2. A referee who believes he has a duty to follow the rule book when he officiates a match.
  3. A referee who believes he has no right to substitute his personal judgement/feelings in lieu of a clearly written rule.

Number 3 is particularly relevant when the referee views a rule as stupid.  He would nonetheless see it as his duty to adhere to the rule.  He might say, "Son, I don't like this rule, but I'm gonna have to ask to to cut your hair or use a proper covering.  Otherwise, I'll have no choice but to disqualify you from this match."  (This ref will probably advocate to get the rule changed in the off-season.) 

Such a referee might very well decide to deal with the howling mob rather than compromise his personal integrity.  Of course, he would be branded as a racist by many - especially those who are ill informed and/or like to stir up racial animosity. But among those who still value adherence to duty, he would be seen as a man of courage and principle.  Such a referee couldn't follow your advice to take the easy way out and avoid the problem by "bending" (actually breaking) the rules.  He would view that as too high a price.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling2

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4 hours ago, OBXWrestler said:

I agree with you. This happened all the time when I wrestled (graduated a decade ago) as well. And even in the past few years as a coach. 

My thing with this is why was this not taken care of at weigh ins. The ref is responsible for doing hair and nails check so, why didn’t this come up then? 

 

 

I gruaduated about a decade ago as well. I shaved the night before the state tournament and the refs still deemed my face had stubble so I had to dry shave with no water while in line for skin checks. About an hour later my face looked like the kool-aid man ha, but I passed my skin check. I wasn’t mad at the ref though, rules are rules. 

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2 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Exactly, so why get mixed up in a problem like this when it can easily be avoided.

Those that are saying the ref would have got in trouble had he let things go, well look at his situation now. He DIDNT let it go and is now in a whole world of trouble.

Even IF the governing body decides that the ref was right and can continue officiating (which I doubt will happen due to PR reasons), do you honestly think he will be able to enter a school gym ever again? Hes branded for life as a racist. All could have been avoided if he wasnt a stickler for what most here agree is a stupid rule.

I bet you he would rather get a slap on the wrist from the rules governing body (that most likely wouldn't have come anyways) for allowing the kid to wear an illegal hair cover than to be dealing with this right now.

If you were a ref what would you rather be dealing with?

 

This seems to be a far more clear issue than you are making it out to be.  There is a rule in place.  The rule wasn't followed either willfully or accidently.  The athlete was given time to be in compliance or forfeit so the rule was enforced objectively.  The athlete chose to deal with the problem the best he could in the moment and chose to have his hair cut.  

 

Nobody could forsee this turning into what it did.  The athlete wasn't put on display or purposely shamed.  The trainer wasn't taking delight in attacking the young mans identity.  This is all coming from people who have never wrestled being outraged over a clip they didn't understand. That outrage ends when they log off the internet.  If they log off the internet.   

 

Are you suggesting we cater to the mad herd that is twitter in deciding when to follow rules and when not to? Not just in wrestling but in life?  Is Twitter really our first concern?  

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Semi related - I always thought the shave rules were sort of discriminatory based on pseudofoliculitis barbae.  

If someone looks like this after shaving, should they be forced to do it?  Since one particular race is known to have a higher probability of suffering from shaving related ailments, I am surprised nobody has taken issue with it.  Can you get a shave exemption from a doctor? 

I remember shaving dry a number of times in college and I had sensitive skin and it annoyed me.  I imagine if my neck looked like this after, it would have really annoyed me and potentially seemed unfair.  

Pseudofolliculitis Barbae.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by ironmonkey

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3 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Unfortunately that's not how the world works anymore (if ever).

This ref applied the rules as written and is getting blasted by the mainstream media. Are you telling me he would be getting blasted by the otherside had he not enforced the rule to the letter of the law? Had he just let the kid wrestle with the hair cover he had with him, he wouldn't be all over social media and the news being called a racist.

Have you ever been pulled over for speeding or driving through a stop sign only to be let off with a warning?

Why have traffic laws if they aren't enforced? 

If he hadn't been disciplined for racist remarks in the past I'd figure he was just a rules stickler.  In that case he'd be the kind of ref I dislike, but I'd feel awful for him getting attacked like he is.  But knowing at least one thing he got in trouble for in the past, I have zero sympathy.  

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What I dont get is the fact that the guy had been wrestling all year, apparently. What headgear had he been using up to the point? 

PS dear mod: Would you please privately message me? I need to unlock my main account which I cant do on my own since the email address associated with it is an old hotmail account that's not inaccessible.  Thanks! 

Edited by grecojones2

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38 minutes ago, grecojones2 said:

What I dont get is the fact that the guy had been wrestling all year, apparently. What headgear had he been using up to the point? 

1032004 posted an article on page 1 that clears up at lot of the confusion.  Team was informed before the season regarding the rule and a couple kids (including this one) were specifically warned that they needed to cut their hair or get a cover that attaches to headgear.  

Sounds like the kid was also warned the weekend before, but allowed to wrestle with improper cover.  IMO, the wrestler and his coach had plenty of time to get it right before this match.  

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3 hours ago, ironmonkey said:

Semi related - I always thought the shave rules were sort of discriminatory based on pseudofoliculitis barbae.  

If someone looks like this after shaving, should they be forced to do it?  Since one particular race is known to have a higher probability of suffering from shaving related ailments, I am surprised nobody has taken issue with it.  Can you get a shave exemption from a doctor? 

I'm guessing that a wrestler with pseudofolliculitis wouldn't  necessarily have to shave.  The NFHS allows a wrestler with a beard to compete as long as the beard is covered with a face mask approved by the referee.  (And growing your beard out to a least a short stubble is the most effective  treatment for the condition.)

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Quote

During a tournament last weekend at Southern High School in Manahawkin, Ocean County, Buena wrestling coaches and Johnson complained about the new hair covering, and Johnson was allowed to compete with a version that did not comply with the guidelines, O’Neill said.

So if the kid was told about it the week prior and allowed to wrestle(his warning ticket) and did nothing to rectify the problem, then he has no one else to blame but himself and his coaches. 

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