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ESPN reporting on wrestling referee incident

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7 hours ago, boconnell said:

 

You guys keep quoting anecdotes about matside haircuts and you are amazed that Jordan Burroughs hasn't seen them in all his years.  I'm even more amazed that you haven't seen refs who call matches entirely different for black wrestlers.  

I have definitely seen this. Especially when the stalling starts get handed out in the 3rd period.

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I haven’t see anyone defending what he did in 2016 (several including myself stated he probably should’ve been fired then).  Just pointing out that that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with this incident.

So now he has alcohol problems too?  If he’s a racist, he probably didn’t need much alcohol to say what he did in 2016.

Yes I have seen refs call matches different for black wrestlers and that is horrible.  But this guy has been reffing for probably 40 years in an area which has plenty of African American wrestlers, and I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say his past reffing was racist. The philly.com article even interviewed the coach of 40+ years from Camden high school (primarily African American), who didn’t say much but seemed to indirectly blame the coach because he stated he keeps 3 of the legal hair covers/headgear in stock.

From the article...  

After the incident was reported, he agreed to participate in sensitivity training and an alcohol awareness program. "

Obviously alcohol was somehow involved in him using the slur. 

Edited by boconnell

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12 minutes ago, boconnell said:

From the article...  

After the incident was reported, he agreed to participate in sensitivity training and an alcohol awareness program. "

Obviously alcohol was somehow involved in him using the slur. 

Ok, here's the story, I live in the area.  It was big news in the Courier Post( Southern NJ newspaper). Ref's had just done a youth tourny and were drinking homemade wine at an after-party. From my understanding, all parties were pretty drunk.  The ref in question was arguing over who made the best wine and said the N-word to a fellow Ref who promptly threw him to the ground.   Ref in question didn't remember the slur but called the official to apologize. Upon pressure from the offended ref's  father a complaint was made to the Officials Association and it hit the papers big time. Eventually, both Officials were suspended for a year.

Now the Ref in question has been officiating for over 40 years and there are a lot of politics and animosity among  some of the long term officials.  

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

The ref is racist. His prior actions confirm that. There is no way a racist ref doesn’t allow that to influence his reffing. 

I guess my point is after the 2016 incident, if there were coaches that felt his reffing was racist, they could have spoken up and it likely wouldn’t have been difficult to get him to step down, but that didn’t happen. 

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23 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I guess my point is after the 2016 incident, if there were coaches that felt his reffing was racist, they could have spoken up and it likely wouldn’t have been difficult to get him to step down, but that didn’t happen. 

Actually, they did.

In NJ and AD or coach can refuse to have a ref work his/her match. To my understanding this happened with several schools, but it's left up to the individual schools if the Ref is cleared through the State.  

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Some of you have no idea how "confidential" complaints or evaluations regarding referees can work.  Over many years our staff would have refs approach us and demand to know why we gave them the evaluation grades we did--this was all supposed to be anonymous.  The head of the local refs association thought this was funny and purposely assigned refs to us who would be antagonistic and we were on the wrong end of too many bogus "judgment" calls to mention.  After a while we just quit doing the evaluations because the end result was that our kids were getting screwed for the coaching staff's honesty.  I don't know the situation in NJ, but if it's anything like what we experienced lodging a complaint would have made everything worse.

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33 minutes ago, bp2xbw said:

Actually, they did.

In NJ and AD or coach can refuse to have a ref work his/her match. To my understanding this happened with several schools, but it's left up to the individual schools if the Ref is cleared through the State.  

I know it was posted earlier that after the 2016 incident teams could request not to have him assigned to their matches (which as you say they can basically do anyway).  I’m sure that happened, but my guess (yes just speculation) is that it was more out of principle after the incident than due to evidence that his actual reffing was racist. This ref was often at the state championships.  I don’t know if he was in 2017 or 2018, but I don’t believe coaches can request a different ref there, so if coaches felt that strongly about  him, they should have done more than just request he not be assigned to their matches. 

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28 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Some of you have no idea how "confidential" complaints or evaluations regarding referees can work.  Over many years our staff would have refs approach us and demand to know why we gave them the evaluation grades we did--this was all supposed to be anonymous.  The head of the local refs association thought this was funny and purposely assigned refs to us who would be antagonistic and we were on the wrong end of too many bogus "judgment" calls to mention.  After a while we just quit doing the evaluations because the end result was that our kids were getting screwed for the coaching staff's honesty.  I don't know the situation in NJ, but if it's anything like what we experienced lodging a complaint would have made everything worse.

 

Apples and oranges IMO unless your complaints were about alleged racism.

This ref’s area is actually one of the few I’ve seen in HS where the refs all have large numbers on their backs.  I don’t know exactly how the evaluation process works but I’m sure that makes it much easier for coaches to make complaints. 

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21 hours ago, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

Even with camera phones, Twitter, etc., I doubt that anything would have come of this incident had it not involved an old white guy and  a young black kid.  The media loves to stir up racial controversy whether actual racism is involved or not - particularly when these demographics are involved.   

 

 

In the above clip, the guy talking in the video is completely misinformed about what happened.  He even ADMITS he doesn't know why it happened!  Too many people today don't care about the facts, they just want someone to blame.

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

I know it was posted earlier that after the 2016 incident teams could request not to have him assigned to their matches (which as you say they can basically do anyway).  I’m sure that happened, but my guess (yes just speculation) is that it was more out of principle after the incident than due to evidence that his actual reffing was racist. This ref was often at the state championships.  I don’t know if he was in 2017 or 2018, but I don’t believe coaches can request a different ref there, so if coaches felt that strongly about  him, they should have done more than just request he not be assigned to their matches. 

Yes , I think you are correct. It was probably done out of principle. But the Ref has  been around for many years and he actually is one of the best in the State (when he is making calls).  It's all the extra-curriculars   that jam him up. As far as I know, the coaches evaluate the Refs yearly and if his evaluation is good he gets the better matches and post season meets. You can however get black-listed, even if you're good, for repeatedly being a D-bag which may happen now that the Governor has chimed in.

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Some of the posts in here are pure genius. Forfeit the whole dual in protest? The rules have been around for a long time and are sometimes enforced (an official doing their job, gasp). I have had to cut my athlete's hair for being too long in the past as well, and it was never a big deal (though he was white, so people aren't going to be crying racism in his case). Stop this tar and feather nonsense, the kid and his coaches are to blame for the situation. Hair, like fingernails and braces, require a certain level of grooming or equipment to manage. If you don't have the equipment you don't compete. It's a pretty simple concept guys.

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22 hours ago, Pinnum said:

Why have rules if they aren’t enforced?  

 

The whole point of the affixed headgear head coverings is to prevent the problem of having to constantly readjust the head coverings that shift under the headgear while wrestling. 

I have been thinking about this a lot all last night and this morning. What does everyone here think about the ref that let things slide the week before? Did he do the right thing or was he wrong for breaking the well documented rules? Should he be disciplined for deliberately allowing the official rules to be broken? Or is he a hero for standing up to the establishment for not enforcing an unfair racially bias rule?

While I dont see this happening, I would not be shocked if I saw a rule change coming that requires all wrestlers to wear a hair cover regardless of hair length, style, or texture.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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57 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I have been thinking about this a lot all last night and this morning. What does everyone here think about the ref that let things slide the week before? Did he do the right thing or was he wrong for breaking the well documented rules? Should he be disciplined for deliberately allowing the official rules to be broken? Or is he a hero for standing up to the establishment for not enforcing an unfair racially bias rule?

 

Neither IMO.  From what I read there was some sort of argument at the previous competition so I doubt that ref(s) let it go easily because they were defying a racist rule, moreso I bet they just didn’t think the rule was that critical (and it’s not like it was the state finals or anything).

The quote in the philly.com article  about the previous competition was a little vague.  It states that Johnson “complained about the new head covering and was allowed to compete with one that did not adhere to the guidelines.”  Maybe he started out wearing the correct one there and it didn’t fit properly or something so they let him wear something else?  Either way, as long as those refs warned him that he would likely need the new head covering in future matches, I don’t really blame them.

It may be worth noting that I believe the previous competition was in a different area that is part of a different officials association, so they could have gotten different direction about how strictly to enforce this rule.  I know that is often an issue at states when there are refs from different areas that may call things a little differently.

Edited by 1032004

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2 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I have been thinking about this a lot all last night and this morning. What does everyone here think about the ref that let things slide the week before? Did he do the right thing or was he wrong for breaking the well documented rules? Should he be disciplined for deliberately allowing the official rules to be broken? Or is he a hero for standing up to the establishment for not enforcing an unfair racially bias rule?

While I dont see this happening, I would not be shocked if I saw a rule change coming that requires all wrestlers to wear a hair cover regardless of hair length, style, or texture.

 

How is the rule unfair or racially biased?  It doesn't target any specific race.  You could argue that the rule is unfairly enforced.  However, I see no objective argument that the rule itself is racially biased.  Any athlete can compete with long hair if they have the proper equipment.

 

I don't think the ref from the prior week is a hero or a villain.  I assumed he allowed the athlete to compete because he didn't want him to miss out on the competition which was early in the season and not a major tournament, but I won't pretend to understand what motivates other people without knowing them.  It never occurred to me he was making some sort of social stand.   

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7 minutes ago, ironmonkey said:

 

How is the rule unfair or racially biased?  It doesn't target any specific race.  You could argue that the rule is unfairly enforced.  However, I see no objective argument that the rule itself is racially biased.  Any athlete can compete with long hair if they have the proper equipment.

 

I don't think the ref from the prior week is a hero or a villain.  I assumed he allowed the athlete to compete because he didn't want him to miss out on the competition which was early in the season and not a major tournament, but I won't pretend to understand what motivates other people without knowing them.  It never occurred to me he was making some sort of social stand.   

I ment to put "hero for standing up to the establishment for not enforcing an unfair racially bias rule" in quotations which is what many in the twitterverse are saying the rule is when explained what the actual rule is. I even read a comment saying the diagram showing the illustration of the head with braids as an example of institutionalised racism targeted specifically against black people.

My bad.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

 

Neither IMO.  From what I read there was some sort of argument at the previous competition so I doubt that ref(s) let it go easily because they were defying a racist rule, moreso I bet they just didn’t think the rule was that critical (and it’s not like it was the state finals or anything).

The quote in the philly.com article  about the previous competition was a little vague.  It states that Johnson “complained about the new head covering and was allowed to compete with one that did not adhere to the guidelines.”  Maybe he started out wearing the correct one there and it didn’t fit properly or something so they let him wear something else?  Either way, as long as those refs warned him that he would likely need the new head covering in future matches, I don’t really blame them.

It may be worth noting that I believe the previous competition was in a different area that is part of a different officials association, so they could have gotten different direction about how strictly to enforce this rule.  I know that is often an issue at states when there are refs from different areas that may call things a little differently.

Oh, so the plot thickens. The wrestler and coaches knew from the previous meet that his head cover was illegal and did nothing about it.  Funny, that wasn't reported on CNN. 

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18 minutes ago, bp2xbw said:

Oh, so the plot thickens. The wrestler and coaches knew from the previous meet that his head cover was illegal and did nothing about it.  Funny, that wasn't reported on CNN. 

Yep - objectively looking at all the evidence before hyping this as a racial incident would mess up the narrative that most of the media and SJWs are pushing. 

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1 hour ago, ironmonkey said:

How is the rule unfair or racially biased?  It doesn't target any specific race.  You could argue that the rule is unfairly enforced.  However, I see no objective argument that the rule itself is racially biased.  Any athlete can compete with long hair if they have the proper equipment.

 

Well, according to Al Sharpton, the rule "clearly discriminates against people that have a certain cultural bend, and come form a certain identity and racial background."

And, since the reverend's position is diametrically opposed to yours, I need look no further to conclude that you're correct and the rule is, in fact, race neutral.

https://www.tmz.com/2018/12/23/al-sharpton-high-school-wrestling-hair-rules-biased-ref/

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3 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I ment to put "hero for standing up to the establishment for not enforcing an unfair racially bias rule" in quotations which is what many in the twitterverse are saying the rule is when explained what the actual rule is. I even read a comment saying the diagram showing the illustration of the head with braids as an example of institutionalised racism targeted specifically against black people.

My bad.

 

No worries.  Intent is often lost in text.  I understand what you meant now.  

 

1 hour ago, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

Well, according to Al Sharpton, the rule "clearly discriminates against people that have a certain cultural bend, and come form a certain identity and racial background."

And, since the reverend's position is diametrically opposed to yours, I need look no further to conclude that you're correct and the rule is, in fact, race neutral. 

https://www.tmz.com/2018/12/23/al-sharpton-high-school-wrestling-hair-rules-biased-ref/

 

Yikes.  Whatever truth there was in this incident  is long lost at this point.  Now seems like a good time for me to stop posting about this. I hope the kid does well this season and doesn't let this incident distract him from his goals (on and off the mat)!!   

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15 hours ago, bp2xbw said:

Yes , I think you are correct. It was probably done out of principle. But the Ref has  been around for many years and he actually is one of the best in the State (when he is making calls).  It's all the extra-curriculars   that jam him up. As far as I know, the coaches evaluate the Refs yearly and if his evaluation is good he gets the better matches and post season meets. You can however get black-listed, even if you're good, for repeatedly being a D-bag which may happen now that the Governor has chimed in.

He has now been blacklisted and banned by NJSIAA from officiating any event that Buena competes in.

I read somewhere that there may be a pending lawsuit as well. Ironic since he supposedly said he enforced the rule because he didnt want to get sued... and by enforcing the rule hes now getting sued.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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19 hours ago, 1032004 said:

 

Apples and oranges IMO unless your complaints were about alleged racism.

This ref’s area is actually one of the few I’ve seen in HS where the refs all have large numbers on their backs.  I don’t know exactly how the evaluation process works but I’m sure that makes it much easier for coaches to make complaints. 

Completely missed my point. I directly addressed the idea that all you have to do is lodge a complaint with the local ref association and the problem (whether racial or otherwise) will be fairly administered.  Doesn't work that way.  If (and I say "if" because I don't know) the ref association in NJ this ref works through is a good-old-boy network and he has pals he parties with in high places, a good chance nothing would happen to him.  That is, if this incident did not garner national attention like it has.  When you've got someone like Jordan Burroughs weighing in, pretty hard to make the situation go away.

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2 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Completely missed my point. I directly addressed the idea that all you have to do is lodge a complaint with the local ref association and the problem (whether racial or otherwise) will be fairly administered.  Doesn't work that way.  If (and I say "if" because I don't know) the ref association in NJ this ref works through is a good-old-boy network and he has pals he parties with in high places, a good chance nothing would happen to him.  That is, if this incident did not garner national attention like it has.  When you've got someone like Jordan Burroughs weighing in, pretty hard to make the situation go away.

No I didn’t miss the point.  I agree with you that the good ole boys network likely exists and might make it difficult for coaches to make complaints about what they believe to be poor officiating.

My point is I’m pretty confident complaints about alleged racism wouid be taken more seriously.

 

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5 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

He has now been blacklisted and banned by NJSIAA from officiating any event that Buena competes in.

I read somewhere that there may be a pending lawsuit as well. Ironic since he supposedly said he enforced the rule because he didnt want to get sued... and by enforcing the rule hes now getting sued.

Maybe the lawsuit is on his behalf for libel.

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