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MisterHand

National Championship plot just thickened

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Gimp..I agree that it would be great if there was a little more time but I think it is a good step.

 

The NCAA wil not provide a team trophy at two NCAA events otherwise they would have to count it as a 90th Championship.

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This is an interesting change. One thing I'd like to see is an increase the number of scholarships each team is allowed. Twelve to fifteen scholarships would be a reasonable number. What other team sport is expected to compete for a national title with less scholarships than starters? Because of the huge number of points a strong individual can score for the team in the individual tournament, a less balanced team can win a team title under the current format. If it really is going to be more of a team sport, you have to be able to build a deeper team. That takes scholarships for the guys that help you get there, not just a pat on the back from the coach. More scholarships would allow for more depth and reduce the incentive to have injured wrestlers compete during the regular season to stay in the team race. It's all about athlete safety! And money of course.

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What other team sport is expected to compete for a national title with less scholarships than starters?

Men's and women's fencing, men's golf, men's rifle, men's soccer, men's tennis, men's volleyball, and men's water polo. Baseball can be argued as well, because nine is a farcical number, given that a college baseball team generally requires at least four starting pitchers (three or four for each weekend series, and at least one, perhaps two, for midweek games).

 

As for the topic at hand, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

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Increasing the number of scholarships will make it more difficult for schools to field competitive teams. It could lead to a greater number of schools with weak teams dropping the sport (possibly leading to fewer scholarships overall, depending on how many schools end up dropping wrestling).

 

Another thing to consider is that these wrestling teams already lose money, and adding more scholarships means that teams will have to produce more funding from somewhere to make ends meet.

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"Men's and women's fencing, men's golf, men's rifle, men's soccer, men's tennis, men's volleyball, and men's water polo."

 

Men's rifle? Really? How many tickets does the men's rifle NCAA championship sell? Or is admission free? Are we modeling our sport after men's rifle or men's water polo? If we are, we should just give up. Men's hockey has 18 scholarships if I am correct. If there is money being made on the NCAA tournament, maybe there can be revenue sharing. I don't know. Maybe they make money, but not very much. I understand what you are getting at though (esp with baseball) and you are right. The idea of extra scholarships is probably going nowhere fast. I was just thinking out loud.

 

I do hope that college wrestling doesn't make a habit of trying too many extreme format and rule changes. International wrestling is a joke. There is something to be said for stability and tradition. Sometimes the status quo is okay. If we start seeing ball grabs and clinches, that's the beginning of the end. I hear there are coaches that want a push out rule. That would be awful. I wouldn't object to the elimination of the 2 point near fall though. A 2 second tilt is not almost a fall or "near fall".

 

The new format is an interesting idea. If ESPN is pushing the format change, maybe it will last. Or maybe it will go the way of "the double", the singlet replacement idea. I wrestled in the National duals almost every year in college as an athlete. Attendance wasn't very impressive. To skiers, the world cup is more important than the Olympics. It may take a while before anybody takes the team dual title more seriously than the individual tournament no matter who the NCAA crowns king. There are only a few teams that have the resources to really be in the title hunt anyway. The format change won't shake the pecking order up that much or John Smith and the rest wouldn't be on board with it.

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I really don't see a big change in the few programs that will be competing for the NCAA title. For those that don't think coaches will focus on winning the dual championship even if the NCAA crowns the champion, I disagree. Coaches often get bonuses for winning NCAA titles. Even outside of the financial incentive, you have schools wanting to add NCAA trophies and banners in their gyms and coaches wanting that acclaim in the record books.

 

We will now have a national team championship and then a few weeks later will have a tournament of the nation's best individual athletes competing for All-American honors.

 

The dual race, this year, was more interesting than the ncaa team race. One upset match in a dual can be all the difference while in the tournament you can easily recover from it.

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This just in:

 

 

 

NCAA tournament money goes to the NCAA and its operating budget. Athletic scholarships are funded by the individual universities and their athletic departments.

 

 

 

Just because the NCAA DI wrestling championships are a profitable event does not change the fact that wrestling is (generally) speaking operaing at a net loss for most athletic departments themselves - yes there are exceptions ... and increased scholarship funding would only make things "worse".

 

 

 

The chances of an increased scholarship number for wrestling are less than zero, between the budgetary constraints above and the Title IX issues that have been discuseed ad infinitum on this board.

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"The chances of an increased scholarship number for wrestling are less than zero, between the budgetary constraints above and the Title IX issues that have been discuseed ad infinitum on this board."

 

Here is what I said:

 

"... you are right. The idea of extra scholarships is probably going nowhere fast."

 

Way to pile on after I said I was wrong and just thinking out loud. Great job! I guess that's how you get up to 5,000+ posts in 2 years.

 

"I really don't see a big change in the few programs that will be competing for the NCAA title. For those that don't think coaches will focus on winning the dual championship even if the NCAA crowns the champion, I disagree. Coaches often get bonuses for winning NCAA titles. Even outside of the financial incentive, you have schools wanting to add NCAA trophies and banners in their gyms and coaches wanting that acclaim in the record books."

 

We are basically in agreement. There are only a handful of teams with any shot at winning the title. They will tweak a few things but that's about it. For the vast majority of teams that have no shot at the title, the individual results will still be the focus of training.

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"ESPN has supposedly reached out and offered to cover the dual format."

 

Seem like you're extrapolating a lot out of this statement unless you have information that was not in the article.

 

I can't believe the article actually said this "ESPN has supposedly reached out and offered to cover the dual format."

 

Great reporting and fact checking. How about calling ESPN to try and get a comment, not some hearsay? I guarantee you the staff at TheMat would have had a contact to verify this or at least tried to call. That guy at flo is a grade A hack job.

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"ESPN has supposedly reached out and offered to cover the dual format."

 

Seem like you're extrapolating a lot out of this statement unless you have information that was not in the article.

 

I can't believe the article actually said this "ESPN has supposedly reached out and offered to cover the dual format."

 

Great reporting and fact checking. How about calling ESPN to try and get a comment, not some hearsay? I guarantee you the staff at TheMat would have had a contact to verify this or at least tried to call. That guy at flo is a grade A hack job.

ESPN has been very involved in this process on the duals. I can tell you that with a 100% certainity.

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"ESPN has supposedly reached out and offered to cover the dual format."

 

Seem like you're extrapolating a lot out of this statement unless you have information that was not in the article.

 

I can't believe the article actually said this "ESPN has supposedly reached out and offered to cover the dual format."

 

Great reporting and fact checking. How about calling ESPN to try and get a comment, not some hearsay? I guarantee you the staff at TheMat would have had a contact to verify this or at least tried to call. That guy at flo is a grade A hack job.

ESPN has been very involved in this process on the duals. I can tell you that with a 100% certainity.

 

PT, exactly, that's what I am saying, it was lazy reporting by just making that statement, How about verifying with ESPN or even with NWCA before making a generalization. That's all I was saying, the reporting was lazy.

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PT, I was just commenting on the article, I had no problem with anything else, it all sounds good and great. I appreciate your openness to discussing. I think this is a great idea and wasn't saying anything about the topic being negative, or the NWCA, I was just commenting my opinion on a generalization made in an article that could have been reported better. That's all, I appreciate you reaching out though.

 

Gotta gotta gotta have it, subway!

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not a fan of emphasis of duals over tournaments. most of the bad stuff that happens in wrestling, and gives wrestling a bad rap, revolves around winning duals.

 

putting an injured kid on the mat, have him finish a match a match after an injury, get to a specific weight, shut down try not to get pinned, shut down and keep the score close, etc. i could go on.

 

i realize these things happen in tournaments and already exist in duals but they will be perpetuated more in this system. the "team" aspect of wrestling has merits but it's often taken too far already. wrestlers get taken advantaged of and are prostituted to make a coach or program look good in duals. less likely to happen in a tournament. the system changing to duals superseding the tournament long term loss.

 

the team wins the coach looks good, the wrestler wins the wrestler looks good.

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^^^ Further along those lines... One thing I've always liked about the current tournament format is that teams like American U, or Harvard, or any number of programs generally not in the spotlight can build some success by having a few really good recruits do exceptionally well at NCAA's. (And I think, by the way, that is how Cornell was able to build an overall competative program, by starting with some individual success). I tend to think that under a shifted emphasis toward the dual meet format, we will see a greater trend toward "the rich getting richer".

 

 

B1G in wrestling = SEC in football? :roll: Or are we already there anyhow?

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I don't think you will have as many matches that are boring because of guys trying to block or keep a score low. While that may happen, in a dual format bonus points are HUGE for every team. So even though one wrestler my just be defending, I think the other will force the pace in many of those situations.

 

For new people, or less knowledgable people in the any sport it is much easier to become supportive of a team than a particular individual as in a tournament. In other words It might be easier for someone to root for Missouri as a fan if they don't know who Alan Waters, or Dom Bradley are. Someone in Texas may be an OU fan but has never heard of any of the wrestlers. So it is easier to embrace OU when you see them as a team than following Kendrick Maple and trackwrestling.com

 

Aso duals allow for a simpler format to follow for the less knowledgeable fan. If it gets more airtime it allows for more commentary about the individuals and even the rules. If ESPN is doing you will see well developed captions and bios. I could even see them doing prematch commentary with wrestlers.

 

I am guessing it will allow for some depth. There are many teams out there who have very good backups that don't get to be involved in the NCAA tournament. This allows for guys like Brown at Penn State to wrestle even though they are backups. I think it was OSU that had Rosholt and Bailey (I think). Both could have been used. A couple years ago Mizzou had Ellis and Bradley. I am sure there are other teams out there that have evenly matched guys in the same weight. They may not be the same caliber or big name, but certainly teams like Boise, Wyoming, Etc, have a weight or two where it would be nice to get younger guys matches, if it is possible. Granted in some of the match ups it may be tough (IA vs. OSU), but it does allow for a little opportunity. The other thing is with duals it will allow for a little more balance. I agree the power schools will still be there, but as mentioned by another person, it only takes one upset to change the outcome. That is one thing that makes basketball, football, etc., national championships exciting. A fumble or interception can make the whole difference in the game. A defensive pin, or a scramble can turn the whole tide. When you look at it, Iowa, OSU, Minnesota, and now Penn State have dominated the national tournaments. Mizzou has only broke in the top 4 once in Smiths tenure (and they are a hell-of-a team), but they have beat OU and OSU in duals.

 

Last year IA struggled in duals, but were still a force in the individual tournaments. Penn State lost last year too, but won the NCAA tournament fairly easy if I remember correct. The doors open for more schools which is great for the sport.

 

I do like and will miss the significance of the individual NCAA tournament,but sometimes change is needed. If it doesn't work out after a couple years they can always go back, but what the heck. Give it a shot. If the NWCA is gonna give the trophy at the individual tournament I think it will still have significance. At least for us who are traditionalists. The NWCA has done a pretty good job at placing value on the national duals as evident by the backlash IA and Penn State got the last two years for not going. The individual tournament will still have value. It just won't be on the NCAA record book.

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^^^ Further along those lines... One thing I've always liked about the current tournament format is that teams like American U, or Harvard, or any number of programs generally not in the spotlight can build some success by having a few really good recruits do exceptionally well at NCAA's. (And I think, by the way, that is how Cornell was able to build an overall competative program, by starting with some individual success). I tend to think that under a shifted emphasis toward the dual meet format, we will see a greater trend toward "the rich getting richer".

 

 

B1G in wrestling = SEC in football? :roll: Or are we already there anyhow?

 

That reason above is why I like the dual meet format. Sometimes a school has a few good wrestlers and it's misleading that that specific program is a top 10 program. When Darrion Caldwell won his NCAA title, it vaulted NC State in the standings. Now, it made it look like NC State was a top 15 program (or whatever they finished that year), when it was all Caldwell that made them a top program (no disrespect to any other Wolfpack teammates who may have also won at that tournament), when essentially, NC State was average at best. A few guys winning and getting a "team" in the top 10 is misleading. It also is misleading, when those same coaches use it as a recruiting tool "we finished in the top 15" the "we" is two wrestlers. What about the rest? I think it covers up mediocre programs, like NC State was with Carter Jordan, and is misleading to recruits.

 

A dual meet format is a true team event, and the true team with the most talent and depth will be rewarded as they should be. I can't wait for this!

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This will ruin the traditional tourney. It will increase one of wrestling's greatest adversaries, that is, stallling. Bonus points now are huge, but then will be useless as the team champion will already have been determined. Wrestlers will get ahead, avoid risk, and eek out a victory.

 

What will happen to the individual tourney's team aspect is similar to what would happen to the BCS if the NCAA decided to appoint a football champion. It would become mostly irrelevant.

 

Gone will be all the drama of the wrestlebacks and their importance. Saturday morning will be of little importance. Also departed will be great moments like Neal beating Lesnar to change the team title.

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The drama of a great dual has always been more compelling than trying to explain tourney points in individual competition.

 

The individual NCAA tourney will still be huge to the wrestlers. The wrestleback drama will still be tremendous for fans of the teams of the wrestlers involved. National Champs will still be crowned via the individual tourney but the Dual Tourney will now mean determine the team outcome.

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Point being what?

 

Eat Fresh!

 

 

take your meds and practice trackwrestling.

 

that thing is really tricky!

 

Husker Du, your joke was funny the first time I read it. The second time it's just like me, annoying.

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