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MisterHand

National Championship plot just thickened

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This will ruin the traditional tourney. It will increase one of wrestling's greatest adversaries, that is, stallling. Bonus points now are huge, but then will be useless as the team champion will already have been determined. Wrestlers will get ahead, avoid risk, and eek out a victory.

 

What will happen to the individual tourney's team aspect is similar to what would happen to the BCS if the NCAA decided to appoint a football champion. It would become mostly irrelevant.

 

Gone will be all the drama of the wrestlebacks and their importance. Saturday morning will be of little importance. Also departed will be great moments like Neal beating Lesnar to change the team title.

 

Very well said. Eliminating bonus points will take away action, aggressiveness and strategy. In fact, it will make it look like an Olympic Greco-Roman match!

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Very well said. Eliminating bonus points will take away action, aggressiveness and strategy. In fact, it will make it look like an Olympic Greco-Roman match!

 

It won't be that bad. Whatever strategy might be lost during the individual tournament will more than be made up for in the dual meets. Guys will be much more willing to try something crazy (even if it puts them at risk) in an attempt to win a dual for their team than they would at the NCAA tournament. Nobody is going to put themselves in jeopardy for team points at NCAAs. Of course guys want to help their team, but first and foremost they have to take care of themselves and win their matches. The guys that try hard for bonus points at NCAAs will still do so, but now the dual meets will be more exciting with so much on the line.

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The best part about this is every guy in the varsity lineup will feel a part of a national champ team. There are some top ten teams in the current format with half of their team not even in the tournament. In this scenario, you may win your team the title by not giving up bonus. Every guy in the lineup now becomes paramount and that's the way a team championship should be.

 

Will it take away a little from the individual tourney? Maybe, but in my opinion it adds to wrestling.

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Really...So the season ends in February...#1 smokes #16 50-0 and #2 vs #15 49-0 etc...Hell the BIG can't get 1,000 fans at some events...A regional dual championship would put fans in the seats I don't think this will!!!

 

P.S. The PSU "Train" will win either way and to diminish "Tournament Wrestling" is not smart!!!

 

After the meeting on Saturday, and with the endorsement of the college coaches at the convention, the NWCA will present this option at the NCAA Championships Cabinet Meeting on September 11th of this year. Should the NCAA approve this plan, your team champions will begin to be determined in a dual format starting in the 2013-2014 season. -The dual championships will be held in the 3rd week of February.

-Sixteen teams will qualify for the team tournament based on results of regular season duals. Conference Champions receive automatic berths with the balance determined by at-large nods.

-The first round will be contested at the home of the higher seed. The remaining eight schools will compete at the same site to decide the team champ.

-The individual tournament, which will still crown Individual National Champions, and will still be scored, will be held about approximately when it has been in recent years: mid-March. The ‘winning’ team of the tournament will not be a sanctioned champion squad by the NCAA.

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A couple of my thoughts on this:


    [*:1yg3jlqg]This won't diminish the individual tournament at all because it will still be every wrestlers ultimate goal.
    [*:1yg3jlqg]The rich getting richer was a very interesting point brought up by redblades. In general, I think it will be a lot tougher for smaller teams to place high such as American U placing 5th in 2010. However, I think you will see more different teams winning national championships simply because of different match ups.
    [*:1yg3jlqg]Realistically, this is probably a much better representation of the best team in the nation. The team scoring at the current NCAA tournament places way too much emphasis on bonus points (although I love seeing wrestlers going for bonus points) and it allows teams with just a few very good individuals to place overly high. Going back to the AU example, they certainly weren't the 5th best team overall, but were able to place that high based on a few exceptional individuals.
    [*:1yg3jlqg]Overall, I think it is a great move for the sport. Dual meets are much more exciting for the casual fan, and as mentioned by others it gives more individuals the possibility of being part of a national championship team.

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I am shocked Mopar only picked Penn State to win 49-0 and yet has Minnesota winning 50-0.

 

Minnesota Golden Golphers 2012 Nationals Dual Champions with a regular season win over the Penn State Choo choo.

 

I think motorhead better hope that Wright can focus through four weeks of championship competiton.

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http://www.gophersports.com/sports/m-wr ... 11aaa.html

 

P.S. The PSU "Train" crowned 3 NCAA Champions and some other "TEAM" did as well!!!

 

 

I am shocked Mopar only picked Penn State to win 49-0 and yet has Minnesota winning 50-0.

 

Minnesota Golden Golphers 2012 Nationals Dual Champions with a regular season win over the Penn State Choo choo.

 

I think motorhead better hope that Wright can focus through four weeks of championship competiton.

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this is what will happen every year.

 

the final four will be

Iowa

PSU

OSU

Minne

 

wow super exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! seeing as all these teams already dual once during the year anyways.

 

I could give a rats ass about watching these guys trounce schools on the way there. I'd rather watch the NCAA tournament for the Champion and cheer for the App St guys (and others like them that put on runs). Casual fans are already watching the NCAA tournament...why would they if it doesn't matter? So we lose viewership there.

Split the season.

 

MAGISTRATE

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this is what will happen every year.

 

the final four will be

Iowa

PSU

OSU

Minne

 

wow super exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! seeing as all these teams already dual once during the year anyways.

 

I could give a rats ass about watching these guys trounce schools on the way there. I'd rather watch the NCAA tournament for the Champion and cheer for the App St guys (and others like them that put on runs). Casual fans are already watching the NCAA tournament...why would they if it doesn't matter? So we lose viewership there.

Split the season.

 

MAGISTRATE

Because Cornell is never going to have a decent dual team? Oklahoma? Ohio State? Any others?

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Since the top 8 will make the final date, here are the top 8 dual rankings for the last 15 years:

 

[table] [tr] [td]Rank[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]8[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2012[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]PA ST[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [td]Corn[/td] [td]OH ST[/td] [td]Nebr[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2011[/td] [td]Corn[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]PA St[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]VT[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [td]Lehigh[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2010[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]IA St[/td] [td]OH ST[/td] [td]Ok ST[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]Corn[/td] [td]Lehigh[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2009[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]Corn[/td] [td]IA St[/td] [td]Nebr[/td] [td]Mizz[/td] [td]OH ST[/td] [td]Lehigh[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2008[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]CMich[/td] [td]IA St[/td] [td]Nebr[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]PA ST[/td] [td]Wisc[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2007[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]Mizz[/td] [td]NW[/td] [td]Corn[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]Mich[/td] [td]IA ST[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2006[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]Mich[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [td]Nebr[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [td]Cmich[/td] [td]IA ST[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2005[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [td]IA St[/td] [td]Nebr[/td] [td]Lehigh[/td] [td]Mich[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [td]Cmich[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2004[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]Mich[/td] [td]Nebr[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [td]Lehigh[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]IA ST[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2003[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [td]Lehigh[/td] [td]OH ST[/td] [td]Ariz ST[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2002[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]Mich[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]IA ST[/td] [td]OH ST[/td] [td]PENN[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2001[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]IA ST[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [td]Nebr[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [td]Mich[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2000[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]IA ST[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [td]Boise ST[/td] [td]Penn[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]1999[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]Ok ST[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]IA ST[/td] [td]Okla[/td] [td]Cmich[/td] [td]PA ST[/td] [td]CSUB[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]1998[/td] [td]OK ST[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]Minn[/td] [td]PA St[/td] [td]Ariz ST[/td] [td]Illi[/td] [td]Nebr[/td] [td]Mich[/td] [/tr][/table]

 

 

[table] [tr] [td]Team[/td] [td]Final Four[/td] [td]Elite 8[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Arizona State[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]2[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Boise State[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Cal St-Bakersfield[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Central Michigan[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Cornell[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]5[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Illinois[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]9[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]12[/td] [td]12[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Iowa State[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]11[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Lehigh[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]6[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Michigan[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]7[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minnesota[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]13[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Missouri[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]2[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Nebraksa[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]8[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Northwestern[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Ohio State[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]5[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Oklahoma[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]10[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Oklahoma ST[/td] [td]11[/td] [td]14[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Penn State[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]5[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Pennsylvania[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]2[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Virginia Tech[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Wisconsin[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [/tr][/table]

 

Note: there were a lot of additional programs ranked 9 and 10 most years.

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Assuming that the national qualifiers are used as the dual conferences, this is what it could have looked like this past year. (Note: I used SHP's dual results index, rather than the NWCA dual rankings, for seeding)

 

 

[table] [tr] [td]Bid[/td] [td]Team[/td] [td]Seed[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]ACC[/td] [td]Maryland[/td] [td]10[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Big 12[/td] [td]Oklahoma State[/td] [td]1[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Big Ten[/td] [td]Minnesota[/td] [td]2[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]CAA[/td] [td]Hofstra[/td] [td]13[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]EIWA[/td] [td]Cornell[/td] [td]4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]EWL[/td] [td]Pittsburgh[/td] [td]12[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]MAC[/td] [td]Kent State[/td] [td]14[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Pac-12[/td] [td]Oregon State[/td] [td]15[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Southern[/td] [td]Chattanooga[/td] [td]16[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]West[/td] [td]Wyoming[/td] [td]11[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]At Large[/td] [td]Penn State[/td] [td]3[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]At Large[/td] [td]Ohio State[/td] [td]5[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]At Large[/td] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]6[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]At Large[/td] [td]Oklahoma[/td] [td]7[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]At Large[/td] [td]Illinois[/td] [td]8[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]At Large[/td] [td]Nebraska[/td] [td]9[/td] [/tr][/table]

 

 

First round matches

[table] [tr] [td]Home[/td] [td]Visitor[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Oklahoma State[/td] [td]Chattanooga[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minnesota[/td] [td]Oregon State[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Penn State[/td] [td]Kent State[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Cornell (21-12)[/td] [td]Hofstra[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Ohio State (22-9)[/td] [td]Pittsburgh[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Iowa[/td] [td]Wyoming[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Oklahoma[/td] [td]Maryland[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Illinois[/td] [td]Nebraska[/td] [/tr][/table]

 

Actual results listed for teams that wrestled during the season.

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Pinnum, I did something similar, only with two minor changes:

 

 

1. I didn't include Chattanooga in the field, as the worst team with an automatic bid. Bear in mind that 50% of the field has to be at-larges, per NCAA bylaws, although this would become moot as of the 2013-2014 year, as the EWL would fall below automatic qualifying eligibility (the Big 12 is already below that threshold)

 

2. I used the February 6th dual-result rankings. (I can't tell which dates you used)

 

Maryland at #1 Penn State

Kent State at #8 Oklahoma

Oregon State at #4 Iowa

Hofstra at #5 Cornell

Nebraska at #2 Oklahoma State

Missouri at #7 Illinois

Wyoming at #3 Minnesota

Pittsburgh at #6 Ohio State

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I think it was pre-national duals (I had it on my computer).

 

It will be interesting to see what the conference realignments do to the championships field. Personally, I think 16 teams is too few in the field but it is such an improvement over the tournament championship.

 

 

 

This year, I invited a buddy of mine that lives in Kansas City out to St. Louis for the championships. He had never watched wrestling before but is a big sports fan.

 

 

Some feedback I got from him:

 

1) The team scoring system, with multiple matches going on at once, makes it too hard to follow the team race.

 

2) The bigger guys (174-HWT) are the most fun to watch.

 

The second one caught me by surprise since most in the sport don't care for HWT as much. But he said that the bigger guys were stronger and more impressive as a result. Additionally, it was much easier for him to understand the scoring with the larger guys where you could more clearly see the fine line of when points were scored.

 

Coming from a non-wrestling sports fan, I found this insight interesting and the exact opposite of what most in the sport would argue.

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Just some random thoughtsI just don't see the fan following for the National Dual Meet Championships.

 

Face it, on average, only the semis and finals will there be the "anticipated" match ups. I also have a feeling that the NWCA/NCAA will try to split conferences on the bracket(bad idea if they are truly trying to find the best two teams in the finals)

 

Fans of the 8 seed are not gonna travel to see them get hammered by the 1 seed.

 

Once a team has fallen out of contention, won't coaches sit thier studs to protect the seeds in March

 

Will is be full wrestle back?

 

I'd rather see two pools of 4 and the winners of each pool go for 1st And 2nd for 2nd and so on

 

 

I do agree that this method is the best method to determine the "National Champ" but it won'd do much to help the sport.

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I think it was pre-national duals (I had it on my computer).

 

It will be interesting to see what the conference realignments do to the championships field. Personally, I think 16 teams is too few in the field but it is such an improvement over the tournament championship.

I think an eye has to be kept on eventually expanding to 24, but I don't think it's financially feasible right now, particularly for the teams that would have to pay their own way to fly to one of the eight first-round sites.

 

Remember, however, the NCAA Basketball tournament started at eight (as in, seven plus one), and look at what it's grown to now! (even until the mid-70's, it was no more than 25 teams...automatic bids and nobody else, except maybe a few independents who might be invited)

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Other than jammen, I am surprised no one brought up this point:

If the NCAA takes control of this event it will "force" schools to participate.

Schools won't opt out "for the betterment of their program" because the NCAA can

enforce sanctions on them that might impact the individual tournament.

 

Maybe I missed something but the article in the OP said the Individual Tournament will still be scored. There would still be a tournament team champion in may understanding just not deemed the NCAA Team Champion.

 

I think it is great for college wrestling.

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Other than jammen, I am surprised no one brought up this point:

If the NCAA takes control of this event it will "force" schools to participate.

Schools won't opt out "for the betterment of their program" because the NCAA can

enforce sanctions on them that might impact the individual tournament.

 

Maybe I missed something but the article in the OP said the Individual Tournament will still be scored. There would still be a tournament team champion in may understanding just not deemed the NCAA Team Champion.

 

I think it is great for college wrestling.

 

Yes. My understanding:

 

The NCAA will host both events.

 

The NWCA and NCAA will swap the titles they give out. The NCAA will crown the dual champion and the NWCA will recognize the tournament champion.

 

The OW at the NCAAs is currently not recognized by the NCAA but awarded by the NWCA. Most people don't realize the divide between the NCAA and the NWCA because when you are at the event it all seems like one. This is exactly what will happen with the changes, most people won't notice a significant change at the individual championship. However, they will notice an addition of a great event where every program that qualifies will attend.

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I think this is an interesting idea that shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand.

 

Though having said that, I have two concerns:

 

1) What will attendance be like at this team championship? I don't think it will be on par with the individual tournament simply because more schools are represented at an individual versus a dual tournament. The die hard fans will show up, of course, but I think the more casual fans will pass on the dual tournament if their school isn't competing.

 

2) The article mentioned that conference champions will get an automatic berth to the team championships. How are the conference champions going to be determined; is it going to be by conference dual meet record, or will it be based on team standings in the individual tournament? If the latter, then it makes the team championship idea a little silly.

 

At the end of the day I still maintain that the best way to increase attendance and interest in collegiate wrestling is to make it a spring sport. Get it away from the high school season so that the sport's most natural fan base -- high school wrestlers, their families, and coaches -- have an easier time getting out to watch tournaments and duals.

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I think this is an interesting idea that shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand.

 

Though having said that, I have two concerns:

 

1) What will attendance be like at this team championship? I don't think it will be on par with the individual tournament simply because more schools are represented at an individual versus a dual tournament. The die hard fans will show up, of course, but I think the more casual fans will pass on the dual tournament if their school isn't competing.

 

2) The article mentioned that conference champions will get an automatic berth to the team championships. How are the conference champions going to be determined; is it going to be by conference dual meet record, or will it be based on team standings in the individual tournament? If the latter, then it makes the team championship idea a little silly.

 

At the end of the day I still maintain that the best way to increase attendance and interest in collegiate wrestling is to make it a spring sport. Get it away from the high school season so that the sport's most natural fan base -- high school wrestlers, their families, and coaches -- have an easier time getting out to watch tournaments and duals.

Given that the NCAA Wrestling Team Championship would come before the conference tournaments, it would be kind of difficult to have the team standings in the individual tournament determine automatic bids!

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My guess would be that each conference will develop their own way of determining conference champions. It will probably be like football (pre-championship games) where it was often controversial but I have no problem with that. As it matures there will be standards developed.

 

There might not be 20k fans showing up to the duals in the first few years but I don't think it is unreasonable to think that 10k fans will show up to the duals. After all, there will be the top 8 teams in the country. Even if fans don't travel there will be enough high school and youth wrestling fans in the region to drive attendance.

 

I think that fans that can't attend the individual event due to scheduling with work or family will attend the duals and fans that can't afford to attend the duals because they are too far from their home will attend the individual (assuming it is closer to their home).

 

I think we will reach more fans and attendance will grow.

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