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MisterHand

National Championship plot just thickened

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Look, I'm all for new solutions, but I'd much rather we keep the format the same (the best three days of my year) and move the season to a date (sometime in the Spring) where we can at least try to attract current participants in wrestling (at the HS and youth level) to come and watch, versus an idea that guts the one good thing that college wrestling has going for it.

 

 

How do you suppose we get more high school kids to attend an event that we keep selling out? The truth is: demand is now greater than the number of seats (or rather tickets since they are sold in all session packages) can accommodate.

 

The idea is that the HS kids could come to more events (not just the NCAAs) and follow college wrestling more actively than is done now. HS kids can't attend a college wrestling event, be it a dual or tournament, if they're competing in a HS the same day.

 

I disagree with others on ESPN. They cover wrestling for a couple of hours a year! I don't feel wrestling is indebted to ESPN at all - besides, what has it done for sport? Folks may have opinions, but the tangible evidence shows that it has done nearly nothing (fewer programs, less money, same old story) to further wrestling. I was/am hoping avenues like the Pac 12 and Big 10 network would help the amount of air time wrestling gets, but I don't think its materialized as of yet.

 

 

Also, the whole idea behind the spring sport thing is that the entire season starts later, not that it go longer.

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The idea is that the HS kids could come to more events (not just the NCAAs) and follow college wrestling more actively than is done now. HS kids can't attend a college wrestling event, be it a dual or tournament, if they're competing in a HS the same day.

 

I disagree with others on ESPN. They cover wrestling for a couple of hours a year! I don't feel wrestling is indebted to ESPN at all - besides, what has it done for sport? Folks may have opinions, but the tangible evidence shows that it has done nearly nothing (fewer programs, less money, same old story) to further wrestling. I was/am hoping avenues like the Pac 12 and Big 10 network would help the amount of air time wrestling gets, but I don't think its materialized as of yet.

 

 

Also, the whole idea behind the spring sport thing is that the entire season starts later, not that it go longer.

 

My mistake on the kid's attendance. I, now, understand what you are saying and I have never been opposed to moving more toward the spring. Over all, I think that the sport does need some innovation and doing the same old will not help us any.

 

With that said, I think ESPN has been a big help to college wrestling. It takes time to build a following and I think that all of the TV coverage we are getting is making people more aware. I am seeing a lot more kids casually following the sport and now being aware of college wrestlers names. It takes time.

 

Can you name me a single sport where ESPN pays the schools that sponsor that sport when they air the NCAA championships? You act like ESPN is exploiting wrestling.

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I don't like this new plan. Ruining a perfectly good tournament for the sake of another. Doesn't make any sense.

 

How is it ruined? Nothing will change, except for what the trophy looks like at the end of the individual championship.

 

I am really interested to know how it will be spoiled.

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Same reason why nobody really follows the national duals right now. No legitimate team race.

 

Plus you are only showcasing 16 teams and likely the same 16 every year. How does this help showcase a underfunded team? It does zero to help them.

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I have always loved the National Duals since they were held i n Va Beach as it seemed to give us (PSU) an opportunity to stick a feather in our had that we were unable to do come post the post season. That said I would rather it stay that......an in season tournament with all the marbles tournament being the way it is now.

 

I think the National Duals as a national championship alone wouuld mean that a number of schools would never reach the field of 16. If they want to award points at this which woulc combine with those earned at the end of season to crown a national champion I could see it.

 

Quite honestly I could not see attending both and would be where the individual championships are held. I honestly think it the national duals) will be a bust with fewer fans attending and the empty seats highly visable on national TV.

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Same reason why nobody really follows the national duals right now. No legitimate team race.

 

Plus you are only showcasing 16 teams and likely the same 16 every year. How does this help showcase a underfunded team? It does zero to help them.

How did "showcasing" Derek Moore back in 2007 help the UC Davis program? How did "showcasing" Payam Zarrinpour that same year help the Sacred Heart program? The UC Davis program has been consigned to the history books, and the Sacred Heart program hasn't had a single All-American since.

 

Making those regular season duals between Chattanooga and Appalachian State, and between Wyoming and Northern Iowa matter is important for the sport, to drive up attendance at those schools, and ultimately, to hook students on our sport, which would drive up attendance and interest at all sports, including at the year-end NCAA Championships (both dual and individual).

 

Besides, if nothing else, wouldn't everybody subscribe to Intermat's Platinum Service to read the SetonHallPirate Weekly BracketBlog? :lol:

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While I haven't weighed in with an official opinion as yet, I'm going to point out to luchador that the Pirate posted a list of 24-28 DIFFERENT teams that would have been involved in the National Duals in the past 10 years by winning their conference dual title or a share of it -- EVEN DUKE!

 

Right now, there are only 5-7 teams that REALISTICALLY have a chance to win the Division I championships with the individual format as it stands right now.

 

It will not be the same 16 teams every single year. Some programs will always be at the bottom, that's the nature of sports. Look across all sports, bottom dwellers will be bottom dwellers. SOMEONE has to finish last.

 

Will F&M (as an example) ever be competitive in a dual or individual format? No. They're non-scholarship and half and low-funded teams will always look to get their 1-3 guys to the tournament and hope to place and get an All-American.

 

Look across all the sports and look at how many different teams actually win titles.

 

I think under a dual format, programs like Edinboro, Maryland, Central Michigan, Lehigh and programs that fall in the 4-40 range are in a much better position to win a team title. Lower funded programs will always be lower funded. To those presidents, winning isn't as imperative to the student-athlete experience as having some representation at championships (individual counts) and representing the school with GPA, graduation rates and working with the community.

 

It won't be the same 16 teams year in and year out. We've seen parity exists below the top 10 programs nationwide.

 

Chattanooga a few years ago had a team which would have made a real run into the tournament (Brands was there at the time).

 

I don't think this "ruins" anything about the individual championships. It's a typical knee-jerk to change ...

 

I'm still weighing my thoughts on the entire thing, but let's be honest when we say it'll only be this number of teams or that number of teams. The top third will not be affected negatively IMO.

 

I'm waiting to compile some stats across all sports to draw any conclusions, I have some ideas about auto bids that probably won't even be considered.

 

There's nothing concrete at this point that proves or disproves anyone's point. It's all knee-jerks right now.

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Right now, there are only 5-7 teams that REALISTICALLY have a chance to win the Division I championships with the individual format as it stands right now.

 

Worse still is how heavily scripted the probably winner is going into the annual tournament.

 

With a dual, the better team generally wins. But sometimes the better team isn't quite so clear going into that dual meet.

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Right now, there are only 5-7 teams that REALISTICALLY have a chance to win the Division I championships with the individual format as it stands right now.

 

Worse still is how heavily scripted the probably winner is going into the annual tournament.

 

With a dual, the better team generally wins. But sometimes the better team isn't quite so clear going into that dual meet.

 

 

Personally, I think that although the possible number of teams ENTERING the event may be larger than the number that could theoretically win the individual event, I think that the number that can win the team event (or make it to the final four or elite eight) is much smaller than how many can sneak into the top 10/15 at the individuals over a few years. American wouldn't have stood a chance at the team events but could shine at the individuals.

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One example:

 

Last year, Nat Duals, Wyoming vs Ok State, if just the OT matches swung the other way... Wyoming could have beaten Oklahoma State. It was fun to watch.

 

Wyoming has no shot at top 5 finish at NCAA's, but they've got a very good wrestling team.

 

Why not give them a chance to do something great (like possibly beating OSU) with the considerable talent they have. They don't have the firepower to light up NCAA's - but they are a very good team, and why is everyone so against letting them shine in an environment where they can?

 

It reminds me of the old analogy of rats in a bucket. If one rat starts to crawl out of the bucket, all the others bite at its tail and pull it back in. Even if some rats could possibly get out, the ones that can't escape pull those that can back in.

 

Let's give wrestling a better chance on the national stage... stop trying to let those that are trying to make a difference succeed.

 

NCAA's tournament isn't going anywhere - fear of that is simply not a reason to block a new opportunity.

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While I haven't weighed in with an official opinion as yet, I'm going to point out to luchador that the Pirate posted a list of 24-28 DIFFERENT teams that would have been involved in the National Duals in the past 10 years by winning their conference dual title or a share of it -- EVEN DUKE!

I'm actually interested to see (and will check within the next few weeks) how many teams have come within one dual of winning their conference's automatic bid. That's probably more important, as it shows all of the teams have been at a point where, had their regular season dual flipped, they would have made the dance. Now, wouldn't you, as a fan, want to go to that dual meet?

 

Here's the list of the 26 schools from the conferences aside from the Big 12, East Regional, and WWC that would have received automatic bids (I'm assuming that these are the eight conferences that would have gotten autobids had the system been in place then):

 

ACC: Duke, Maryland, NC State, Virginia, Virginia Tech

Big Ten: Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Penn State

CAA: Binghamton, Hofstra, Old Dominion

EIWA: Cornell, Lehigh

EWL: Edinboro, Pittsburgh, West Virginia

MAC: Central Michigan, Kent State

Pac-10: Arizona State, Boise State, Oregon State

SoCon: Appalachian State, Chattanooga, The Citadel

 

This hasn't figured in a single at-large berth (Northern Iowa would have gotten a few, Wyoming would have gotten one last year, quite a few of the schools that are perpetually in the middle of the Big Ten like Indiana (2010), Northwestern, Ohio State and Wisconsin would have gotten bids, and obviously the entire Big 12 of yesterdecade would have gotten bids most years as well).

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It'll be the same teams every year. Boring!

 

As a fan, I'd much rather follow the real NCAA championships and the individual stories that go with it under our current format, not a JV team trophy title.

 

The NWCA seems to believe the tournament is broken and needs fixed. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

What's also interesting is how the only coaches who seem to agree with this move are the top programs. Except for Cael, who seems to be the only one who is seeing through the smoke and mirrors of this proposal that is being forced on us all. The top it with no data provided from the NWCA stating how this will help wrestling other than name dropping Espn.

 

There also seems to be this belief that Espn will love to cover both. I don't see that happening over time. One event will be handed the real title, which will only showcase 2 teams. The other will showcase 60+ teams but award a consolation title with no NCAA name attached to it. Which one gets dropped first?

 

We're basically making the current format into the NIT of wrestling. Isn't that regulated to Espn the Ocho now?

 

I think this is bad, bad, bad for the sport.

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Furthermore, I don't know where people get this idea that duals don't matter.

 

Duals matter right now. They matter for attendance, seeding, matches, etc.

 

Tell Iowa duals don't matter right now then get back to us.

The individual matches within the dual matter (although they didn't five years ago). The results of the dual itself, on the other hand, doesn't matter, unless the team's goal is a high-up spot in the Takedown Wrestling Media Dual Impact Index's Dual Results ranking.

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What's also interesting is how the only coaches who seem to agree with this move are the top programs.

 

Like.... who else doesn't agree? You should provide an overwhelming list of coaches, who consistently fall out of the top 20 at the individual tournament, to support this statement.

 

Except for Cael, who seems to be the only one who is seeing through the smoke and mirrors of this proposal that is being forced on us all.

 

Cael doesn't like it because in his eyes, it is his turn to win the scripted individual national tournament on an annual basis. He has assembled the magic ingredient of 2-3 champions with a total of 6-7 solid All Americans, that is needed to win most tournament team points race. He knows that he can lose duals with that same team.

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I can see both sides of this argument. Havent really made up my mind whether I like this idea or not.

 

I also havent followed this discussion to the fullest extent either.

 

Is the NCAA planning on crowning a dual champion and a tourney champ as well......or just planning to use national duals as the only champ?

 

I like to think that less funed teams have a better chance with the current system....see American U. about two years ago. No way they would've had a chance at duals.

 

However, I do like the idea of making teams be solid from top to bottom in order to win a team title.

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I've been thinking more and more about the postings on this thread, and each side of the argument seems to have its merits. However, the one thing that seems to disturb me is that we presently have a great product during those 3 special days in March. We have also received greater exposure in recent years through increased coverage by ESPN. And now someone has decided that the format needs to be changed. While there is obviously no question that OUR sport needs a great deal of improvement in how it is marketed to mainstream America, I do not believe that fixing the one thing that is prospering is the best approach to solving the problem. A better solution might be to have the NWCA continue to handle the national duals and making their own deal with ESPN. The NCAA could also be involved from the standpoint of requiring all teams to participate (and could receive a sanctioning fee for doing so). However, the lions share of the $$$$ would go to the NWCA. Wouldn't this allow greater opportunity to promote wrestling to mainstream America! The opportunities here would seem endless. Although this seems like a no brainer, the more I reflect on this situation the more convinced I become that the biggest problem with our sport seems to come from our leadership.

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RPKD, My thoughts exactly. I would like to know why the NWCA couldn't make the same deal with ESPN? I'll just assume that ESPN wants the name "NCAA" along with the event.

 

That being said, I'm still hoping the NCAA will decide to give a National Championship Trophy to each event. They give one for indoor and outdoor track so I'm not sure why they wouldn't do the same for wrestling since it will make the most sense money wise. In my opinion, money will be lost if they only sanction the dual title.

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The NCAA will not give two championships. If they do that, wrestling becomes two sports. Just like indoor track and outdoor track are two different sports.

 

My guess: ESPN wants the NCAA to sponsor the duals because then there will be two NCAA wrestling Championship (a team and individual) which they are able to cover. ESPN making a deal with the NWCA is not attractive for them because not all the teams choose to attend. If all the teams attended, it might be a lot more attractive for ESPN. The truth is that no program will decide to not attend the NCAA championships (though, teams are always able to opt out of any event). Furthermore, the NCAA will pick up the cost of the event, transportation, and hotels for the duals if it is an official event. This will help the smaller programs that qualify. The NWCA does not help with these cost for the national duals.

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I recall people giving pros and cons about moving the current championship to a later date. I understand resisting moving the whole season. But what about just the individual tournament back one week?

Currently it occurs the same long weekend that has 48 NCAA basketball first and second round games (not counting play-in games).

The following weekend would only have 12 games (4 on th and fr, 2 on sat and sun).

Offering the wrestling individual championships that weekend would mean far less competition for viewer eyes, ESPN probably would like that, and would result in more non hardcore wrestling fans watching. It would also allow for an extra week of recovery from the dual championships.

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Article this weekend: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/articl ... ck_check=1

 

Hardly the unanimous support claimed by the NWCA back at the beginning of the month.

 

A lot of the talk about doing this is to get more fans and more people in attendance at a dual meet in January. A reasonable goal for sure, but I wonder who these new people are. Can someone give a profile of the typical fan it is hoped a new format will capture? I guess my fear is that this new format will take some of the shine off the individual tournament without adding anything to the sport in terms of fans, support, and money. I do not think a chance in format will increase the number of fans at a typical conference dual unless it is known that the winner of that specific dual will go on to the tournament. How often will the schedule work out that way? Maybe once per year I would guess across the whole country. I would also hate to lose something like Lehigh vs. Penn State because Lehigh has to go up to Sacred Heart to fulfill a new conference dual requirement.

 

Finally:

1. ESPN will not be giving money to individual programs. They will purchase the rights to any NCAA event from the NCAA itself, if they want to and believe they can make money by doing so. The NCAA will also not use this money to save programs at risk. NCAA money from media contracts is distributed to the conferences which then divide it as they see fit.

 

2. The NCAA pays to put on championships. Most of them do not make money and are subsidized by the Basketball contract with CBS. Wrestling currently turns a profit. The duals championship may not if the cost of overhead, travel, lodging, food, and other expenses for 16 qualifying teams are not covered by media rights and ticket sales. it would be interesting to hear how many tickets the final weekend will need to sell in order to make this a profitable proposition for the NCAA, because if it's not likely to be profitable, I see no reason why the NCAA would do it when the status quo makes money.

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IronChef,

 

I think you make valid points but I would like to respond to a few.

 

1) I don't think there is any reason to think we will lose the Lehigh vs Penn State matches. Lehigh can easily schedule a dual with Sacred Heart, Brown, and Franklin & Marshall all for the same day. Using a CAA Duals model for the miss-match duals would allow the Lehigh vs American and Lehigh vs Rutgers matches to be single dual events that students and fans can get into.

 

2) You are right that most NCAA Championships do not make money but I think it is important to realize that the NWCA doesn't have much money. I honestly think that part of the reason that the NWCA National Duals has struggled is that they have not invested enough money into putting the event on. Their advertising of the event is basically non-existent. When we look at the line-item expenditures for the Olympic Team Trials this past year we see that they spent over $100,000 on advertising to inform the public about the event. Advertising is expenses and necessary and the NCAA puts a lot of money into getting the public informed about the events and has the financial backing to make it happen. The NWCA does not. Furthermore, the NCAA events are GREAT. Has anyone ever been to an NCAA event and not felt like it was done well? They are all top notch. I am confident that, although maybe not in the first year, the NCAA Duals will turn a profit and be looked at as a great thing for our sport.

 

 

You are correct that ESPN and the NCAA will not give money to programs; we all know that is true. But the NWCA running an event that never realizes its potential doesn't help our sport. It just becomes a burden on our sport when programs have to fund-raise to raise the money to pay their own way. I would much rather the NCAA make money off of the national duals since we at least know they will cover the cost of programs to get to one dual meet. It is great to have the NCAA paying for Chattanooga to go wrestle Iowa in a dual--after all, it was just two years ago when Chattanooga had to fund their own trip to Iowa. The benefit to individual programs may be minimal, but it will be there. Furthermore, wrestling needs advertising and getting on ESPN and having the NCAA market two championships will go a long way in promoting the sport.

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Interesting article IC. What's interesting is Moyer states all these coaches are in favor but never once mentions who these coaches are.

 

Koll says we can just go back to the way things were if it doesn't work. We all know that likely would not be the case.

 

Cael says it best that just trying things out is not the best business model. This is true. Companies that operate in that manner, usually fail.

 

Didn't we just try out this new body assessment system? People still hate it. We just tried the new weight classes that the NWCA swore was a great move. People hate that even more and it's made our sport weaker.

 

Like I've stated, this plan is being forced down our throats with little regard to what the fans want. This was not well-thought through and I think this still needs several more years of discussion before we destroy one tournament for the sake of another.

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