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BigTenFanboy

Ryan Deakin

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4 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Burroughs was more dominant and much better in 2011 than he was in 2009. 2009 JB was not at the level of winning a world title. 2011 JB was.

In folkstyle wrestling, JB 2011 at the NCAAS was not much more dominant then he was in 2009, and against less credentialed wrestlers.

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

My 6 year old son is a pretty good wrestler who has won a handful of match this season in his first year of wrestling. I think he would beat Brandon Slay when he was 6 years old. Slay was 1-22 and his only win was a forfeit that year. Is it ridiculous for me to make that kind of prediction because later in life Slay would go on to win the Olympics?

Stop it, you are never ridiculous!

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2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

And I'm saying when comparing a wrestler from a specific year you can only use information up until the year of comparison because later results account for improvement that has not yet taken place.

I suppose we're operating under different assumptions.  But I do believe that most people would grant favor to one's ncaa career if it was followed up by a bunch of world titles. That is meaningful information that shouldnt be discarded. 

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8 minutes ago, Ts40 said:

Someone please tell me who they think is better, ie can beat, this  year’s version of Jason Nolf. That is what I am asking. 

So you are talking about 157 lbs only?  Because that is a lot different than saying he is the best NCAA wrestler ever.  157 has only been around for about 20 years.  I think a senior Lee Kemp (158 lbs) could beat Nolf.

Edited by jchapman

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11 minutes ago, ThorsteinV said:

I suppose we're operating under different assumptions.  But I do believe that most people would grant favor to one's ncaa career if it was followed up by a bunch of world titles. That is meaningful information that shouldnt be discarded. 

Clearly we are. I give ZERO credence to anything that happened after 2009 for Jordan Burroughs when assessing how good he was in 2009. To do so would factor in improvement that has not yet taken place. That favor you speak of is called bias. It's also an inability to gauge how good someone was at a specific moment in time along their path to greatness.

 

10 minutes ago, Molsen said:

That is a future result when comparing burrough 2011 ncaa career, and his 2009 career. As you said that doesnt count. 

Fair point. Recinded.

2011 JB was the hodge winner, best wrestler in all of college wrestling.

2009 JB was not.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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My feelings about Nolf are that he’s amaxing to watch and amazing. 2x champ and 3x finalist so far. But in terms of GOAT there are question marks. He lost 2x to IMart when it really counted, and IMart lost 2x to Cenzo. So did Nolf get so much better after his redshirt frosh year? 

 

Though Nolf has never lost to anyone bad in college (except last year when knuusred) he’s never made a Jr World team having lost to Hall several times. Yes Hall is a Jr World Champ and Nolf was smaller, but Nolf did lost. Nolf hasn’t been able to beat Green yet. Yes Green is a world medalist but Nolf still lost.

So far as I know Nolf hasn’t beaten the top tier people who’ve gone on to win NCAA titles or make world teams yet.  

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37 minutes ago, BigTimeFan said:

My feelings about Nolf are that he’s amaxing to watch and amazing. 2x champ and 3x finalist so far. But in terms of GOAT there are question marks. He lost 2x to IMart when it really counted, and IMart lost 2x to Cenzo. So did Nolf get so much better after his redshirt frosh year? 

 

Though Nolf has never lost to anyone bad in college (except last year when knuusred) he’s never made a Jr World team having lost to Hall several times. Yes Hall is a Jr World Champ and Nolf was smaller, but Nolf did lost. Nolf hasn’t been able to beat Green yet. Yes Green is a world medalist but Nolf still lost.

So far as I know Nolf hasn’t beaten the top tier people who’ve gone on to win NCAA titles or make world teams yet.  

I get your point, but dominance matters too. If Nolf ends up with a 100% bonus rate, half pins, and a record of 113-3 (with one loss due to injury and the other 2 to iMar), a 90% overall bonus rate, 2-1-1-1, he has to be considered. Also, basing college GOATs on after college experience is an issue itself - I like to use it for tie breakers, but it is a different sport. 

I think none of this matters though. I expect Nolf to make the team at 70kg this year and win a world medal. At that point, he will have wins over James Green and probably some other world beater, depending on who is at the weight (JO?). 

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1 hour ago, BigTimeFan said:

 

So far as I know Nolf hasn’t beaten the top tier people who’ve gone on to win NCAA titles or make world teams yet.  

The problem with him not beating people who have won NCAA titles is the fact that the ones he could theoretically wrestle are his teammates. Since his freshman year Zain Retherford has won all the titles at 149, Deringer and Cenzo have won at 165. You cant beat someone that is impossible to have a match with.

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15 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

The problem with him not beating people who have won NCAA titles is the fact that the ones he could theoretically wrestle are his teammates. Since his freshman year Zain Retherford has won all the titles at 149, Deringer and Cenzo have won at 165. You cant beat someone that is impossible to have a match with.

Yet another reason why wrestling outside of the NCAA clarifies these discussions.

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35 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Yet another reason why wrestling outside of the NCAA clarifies these discussions.

It really doesnt. Wrestlers change after college. Would you evaluate someone's a middle school kids junior high career based on how he does against high school kids? By using that metric Kyle Synder had the best NCAA Career (in recent years) which we all know is not true. I dont think Nolf is the GOAT in terms of NCAA career and not sure anyone has said that. What I have did say is Nolf would handle the 157lbers of the past 20 years during the years they won it. It's basically impossible to prove or disprove this statement because time travel is not possible. It's just an opinion. It's no different than when I created the Kyle Synder vs 1999 Stephen Neal thread last year.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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21 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

It really doesnt. Wrestlers change after college. Would you evaluate someone's a middle school kids junior high career based on how he does against high school kids? By using that metric Kyle Synder had the best NCAA Career (in recent years) which we all know is not true. I dont think Nolf is the GOAT in terms of NCAA career and not sure anyone has said that. What I have did say is Nolf would handle the 157lbers of the past 20 years during the years they won it. It's basically impossible to prove or disprove this statement because time travel is not possible. It's just an opinion. 

It definitely clarifies things.  MS/HS is a false equivalency. 

Snyder's career is right up there with everyone, but his peak level at eligibility exhaustion is well above everyone in recent years. This is proven by his results outside of the NCAA. 

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2 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

It definitely clarifies things.  MS/HS is a false equivalency. 

Snyder's career is right up there with everyone, but his peak level at eligibility exhaustion is well above everyone in recent years. This is proven by his results outside of the NCAA. 

If Nolf wrestled an lost to Jordan Oliver right now how would it clarify how he would do against him while Oliver was still in college? It doesnt. 

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4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

I agree it doesn't predict how he would do against Oliver in college.  It would, however, remove him the GOAlast ten years discussion.  

Fair enough, but I dont think the discussion was really about Nolf being the GOAT, which he obviously isnt.

BigTimeFan brought it into the thread and I dont think anyone here is saying that he is.

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Fair enough, but I dont think the discussion was really about Nolf being the GOAT, which he obviously isnt.

BigTimeFan brought it into the thread and I dont think anyone here is saying that he is.

Ts40 said it

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5 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Fair enough, but I dont think the discussion was really about Nolf being the GOAT, which he obviously isnt.

BigTimeFan brought it into the thread and I dont think anyone here is saying that he is.

I was only talking about using results outside of the NCAA to help a comparison.

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7 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

He said he was the "best college wrestler in history" which is not quite the same as saying hes the goat. People say Kolat was the best high school wrestler in history all the time. I dont interpret that as calling him the goat.

He said it on the college forum, where we are discussing college wrestlers and their college careers.  It’s not like we are discussing greatest basketball players.

Edited by jchapman

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12 minutes ago, jchapman said:

He said it on the college forum, where we are discussing college wrestlers and their college careers.  It’s not like we are discussing greatest basketball players.

So him saying "best college wrestler in history" to you means greatest wrestler of all time?

To me greatest wrestler all time accounts for accomplishments in all of wrestling. I would probably say that would be Alexander Karelin. American? John Smith.

Best college wrestler in history would account for accomplishment achieved while in college. That would be Kyle Snyder.

Beat NCAA Wrestler of all time? Cael Sanderson.

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8 minutes ago, Chrissn2001 said:

Poor Ryan Deakin probably logged onto the forum this morning thinking there was a 10 page thread about him...

If he reads the whole thread he can feel good that he didn't get TF'd by the GOAT, or at least a guy in the Pantheon of Greatest Folkstyle wrestlers ever. 

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7 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

So him saying "best college wrestler in history" to you means greatest wrestler of all time?

To me greatest wrestler all time accounts for accomplishments in all of wrestling. I would probably say that would be Alexander Karelin. American? John Smith.

Best college wrestler in history would account for accomplishment achieved while in college. That would be Kyle Snyder.

Beat NCAA Wrestler of all time? Cael Sanderson.

GOAT declared in a vacuum means something different than GOAT declared in the context of a discussion about college wrestlers and their college careers.

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