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BigTenFanboy

Ryan Deakin

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Howe was what, a 2nd, 1st, 3rd, and 2nd in his career. With his 3rd place him getting hurt during the year against burroughs. I'm not saying he was better then Imar was when Nolf beat him, but Howe was pretty damn good.

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5 minutes ago, Molsen said:

Howe was what, a 2nd, 1st, 3rd, and 2nd in his career. With his 3rd place him getting hurt during the year against burroughs. I'm not saying he was better then Imar was when Nolf beat him, but Howe was pretty damn good.

He used to also beat both Dake and Taylor early in their freestyle careers.

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2 hours ago, dmm53 said:

How dominant was Borroughs at 165 in college in terms of bonus-ing opponents?  Do you have the stats?  I'm curious (not making accusations).  It would be interesting to compare Dake, Taylor, Nolf, and perhaps others who are at or near this weight. 

Borroughs was 36-0 with 6 pins, 14 techs, 9 majors, 3 decisions and 4 wins by either forfeit or injury default the year he won the Hodge.

You could make an argument that Oliver was more dominate as he had 11 pins to Burrough's 6.  (Also, Burroughs had 4 wins by forfeit/injury default to Oliver's 0.  Factor those out and Burrough's 4.86 ppm drops to 4.19.  Oliver's was 4.79.)

http://www.win-magazine.com/2011/03/jordan-burroughs-win-dan-hodge-trophy/

PS: WIN usually provides the stats for the Hodge finalists in their articles announcing each year's winner.  You can click on each winner's article at: https://www.win-magazine.com/win-awards/hodge-trophy/ .

Edited by HurricaneWrestling2

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1 hour ago, BigTenFanboy said:

He used to also beat both Dake and Taylor early in their freestyle careers.

And I’m pretty confident we’ll look back in 20 years and see that Dake, Taylor and obviously Burroughs were better wrestlers than Nolf 

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1 minute ago, ThorsteinV said:

And I’m pretty confident we’ll look back in 20 years and see that Dake, Taylor and obviously Burroughs were better wrestlers than Nolf 

I don't disagree. That doesn't change my opinion of the 2009 version of Jordan Burroughs.

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1 minute ago, ThorsteinV said:

And I’m pretty confident we’ll look back in 20 years and see that Dake, Taylor and obviously Burroughs were better wrestlers than Nolf 

Not in folk. No way Burroughs folk career can match the other three. Not in its totality. 

Dake will win the debate just based on 4x, but the three are razor close. 

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Not in folk. No way Burroughs folk career can match the other three. Not in its totality. 

Dake will win the debate just based on 4x, but the three are razor close. 

I dont even think their Folk careers are considered razor close at all if Nolf goes undefeated this year.

3x Champ, 1x 2nd > 2x Champ, 1x 3rd, 1x DNP.

Its objectively pretty clear.

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6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Not in folk. No way Burroughs folk career can match the other three. Not in its totality. 

Dake will win the debate just based on 4x, but the three are razor close. 

I carefully didn’t specify the type of wrestling. I think we value senior level wrestling quite a bit in evaluating total career.  

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2 minutes ago, Ts40 said:

No. He meant Dake, Nolf, and Taylor. Check ur reading comprehension skills. 

No he ment Nolf, Taylor and Burroughs. Look at what he was quoting. Burroughs, Dake, Taylor, Nolf.

He said Dake was the best out of the 4 in Folk. The remain 3 is who he was referencing as being razor thin. Check your reading comprehension skills.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Are u that obtuse?  He specifically said no way Burroughs’ folk career can match the other 3.  Then he says the 3 r razor close. Who do u think he was talking about?  

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He definitely said there was no way Burroughs folk career could match the other 3. But Burroughs was a 2 time champ, just like Taylor, so they are in the same conversation, but not in the same conversation as the probable 3 timer and the 4 timer.

Edited by Molsen

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Just now, Ts40 said:

Are u that obtuse?  He specifically said no way Burroughs’ folk career can match the other 3.  Then he says the 3 r razor close. Who do u think he was talking about?  

You're right. My bad. I misread. I thought he said out of the 4 Dake was the best and the remaining 3 Burroughs, Taylor and Nolf were razor thin.

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Nolf can not rise  above Dake in folk as Dake won 4 titles.  Having said that Nolf is the best college wrestler I have ever seen. And I don’t think it is close. And that includes Cael. 

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1 minute ago, Ts40 said:

Nolf can not rise  above Dake in folk as Dake won 4 titles.  Having said that Nolf is the best college wrestler I have ever seen. And I don’t think it is close. And that includes Cael. 

Hence my prior comment. It isn't only about 4x. It is about style, scoring, scoring team points. I fully and completely understand that 4x > 3x > 2x. Everyone gets that. But the sheer excitement that Taylor and Nolf bring to the table can't be just white washed away, never mind they will both have outscored Dake in NCAA team points. When ever this is mentioned is sets a certain crowd off, but its important to winning NCAA team titles. . 

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13 minutes ago, Ts40 said:

Nolf can not rise  above Dake in folk as Dake won 4 titles.  Having said that Nolf is the best college wrestler I have ever seen. And I don’t think it is close. And that includes Cael. 

That’s just going overboard. Nolf is amazing, but he also has the benefit of a very weak weight class the past two years.  He does not even have close to the level of competition that Dake did. When he did (Imar), he lost.

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13 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Hence my prior comment. It isn't only about 4x. It is about style, scoring, scoring team points. I fully and completely understand that 4x > 3x > 2x. Everyone gets that. But the sheer excitement that Taylor and Nolf bring to the table can't be just white washed away, never mind they will both have outscored Dake in NCAA team points. When ever this is mentioned is sets a certain crowd off, but its important to winning NCAA team titles. . 

The issue is when people try to bring up dominance to make an argument for someone being better. If you are capable of dominating everyone worse then you (ie Taylor) that doesnt make you better then someone else who isnt nearly as dominant, but can beat you (ie Dake). Some peoples styles lead to more dominant wins, that doesnt mean they are better wrestlers. Just means they are better at dominating the competition that is worse then them. Nolf is breaking people worse then him, that does not mean he would be able to break a Burroughs, or a Dake.

Edited by Molsen

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19 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Hence my prior comment. It isn't only about 4x. It is about style, scoring, scoring team points. I fully and completely understand that 4x > 3x > 2x. Everyone gets that. But the sheer excitement that Taylor and Nolf bring to the table can't be just white washed away, never mind they will both have outscored Dake in NCAA team points. When ever this is mentioned is sets a certain crowd off, but its important to winning NCAA team titles. . 

How do you feel about Askren?  4 X Finalist, 2 X Hodge, very exciting with lots of pins and kick starting the “funk” era.

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5 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Taylor took 2nd at 157 as a freshman. Senior Nolf beats freshman Taylor and I know full well what I said and who the champs were. Yes I think Nolf beats all of them WHEN THEY WERE IN COLLEGE and the years they won it. You can't use their future accomplishments as reasons why he wouldn't because for those respective wrestlers they haven't happened yet. I also stated it was my opinion. You nor anyone has to agree with me and I encourage people to debate and discuss the topic. What I won't accept though is use later accomplishments as evidence because they did not happen yet. Burroughs accomplishments prior to 2009 are valid, anything after is invalid. Those accomplishments show how he improved not where he was at that moment in time unless you believe he did not improved and the world around him just got worse. 

Yes Imar beat Nolf in 2016, but do you think 2016 and 2019 Nolfs are the same? I think 2019 beats 2016 Nolf handily.

Is it fair for me to say that Burroughs now would beat both Molinaro and Metcalf now? Both of them beat him in the past.

 If you feel that Nolf has not improved over the years and everyone around him just got weaker I would disagree. But hey that's my opinion.

My mistake. I forgot Taylor moved up after his freshman year. But you can go ahead and replace him with Dieringer, TJ Williams, or Jordan Leen as other guys Nolf would not dominate.

You're making up rules now in addition from changing from saying "dominate" to "beat." If we can't look at what they did in the past or future what are we looking at? How Nolf handily beat a zero time AA yesterday and that suddenly means he'd be able to dominate Jordan Burroughs? I believe future accomplishments are the best way to determine how good someone really is. Especially when they don't have adequate competition to test them at NCAA's like Nolf this year. 

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13 minutes ago, Molsen said:

The issue is when people try to bring up dominance to make an argument for someone being better. If you are capable of dominating everyone worse then you (ie Taylor) that doesnt make you better then someone else who isnt nearly as dominant, but can beat you (ie Dake). Some peoples styles lead to more dominant wins, that doesnt mean they are better wrestlers. Just means they are better at dominating the competition that is worse then them. Nolf is breaking people worse then him, that does not mean he would be able to break a Burroughs, or a Dake.

Yeah, we all know the argument. I get it that Taylor never beat Dake, but a lot of great young wrestlers have chosen Penn State in their bid to replicate Taylor's style and success. Nolf is one such wrestler. So we as fans find worth in more than just the Dake Taylor on the mat results.

There is a post right now at the top of the PSU board about a youth tourney where half the kids are imitating Jason Nolf. That is worth 100 slush funds. Actually, you can't even put a price on that if you are a PSU fan. 

Dake 4x. Nolf 3x. Both great wrestlers, the intangibles from Nolf are off the chart.

Edited by TBar1977

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Yeah, we all know the argument. I get it that Taylor never beat Dake, but a lot of great young wrestlers have chosen Penn State in their bid to replicate Taylor's style and success. Nolf is one such wrestler. So we as fans find worth in more than just the Dake Taylor on the mat results.

Nolf chose PSU specifically because Taylor went there?

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