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Fix/Suriano - worst ncaa match of all time?

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18 minutes ago, LJB said:

yep... and i'll keep doing it...

particularly when you have people whining about how bad a match was that was wrestled strategically to the rules of folk...

and i will state again for those that have just joined the party... i thought the match was very compelling and very high level wrestling... 

 

35 minutes ago, LJB said:

that is actually a good point, by the whining on this thread, every heavy match is the absolute worst wrestling and should be decided on stall calls in the first 30 seconds of the match...

"Whining"? Are you serious? 

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I appreciate a good defensive match but this was terrible.   Even Fix commented about he didn't like his lack of offense.  Compare that with the Joseph-Marstellar match which was still a good defensive battle but much more interesting.  Still to a common fan, they would prefer a Bo Nickal/Mark Hall/ type of match.

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2 hours ago, LJB said:

and yes, the bear dancing that is heavies is much better now than it was even a few years ago, but, the point is salient... that exact match with an additional 100+ lbs on those kids and no one is complaining about it... i'm a little jealous i didn't think of that first...

Wait, your argument is that people don't complain about heavyweight matches?  People complain about heavyweight matches all the time.

 

3 hours ago, LJB said:

go back and read any of the posts i have made on this topic... my position is pretty clear...

Your position seems to be that Suriano/Fix were not stalling according to Folkstyle rules.

However they could have easily been called for stalling based on folkstyle rules:

http://www.nationalwrestlingmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/WR19.pdf - page 51

"Action is to be maintained by ... wrestling aggressively in all positions"

"A double stalling violation is given when both wrestlers fail to initiate an offense"

"Each wrestler shall continue wrestling in an attempt to secure a takedown."   (Handfighting is not an attempt to secure a takedown).

 

I think a double stalling call earlier in the match would have made them more aggressive, as they'd now be in fear of giving up a point with the next stall call, particularly the type that's not as subjective such as the 5-counts for dropping to a leg, waist/ankle ride or side headlock.

 

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you are picking and choosing what to quote and what not to quote... i just read through the entire section... they were not stalling as per the rules... 

saying handfighting is not an attempt to secure a takedown is a fabrication by you...

 

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50 minutes ago, LJB said:

you are picking and choosing what to quote and what not to quote... i just read through the entire section... they were not stalling as per the rules... 

saying handfighting is not an attempt to secure a takedown is a fabrication by you...

 

 

They don't have to meet all criteria to be called for stalling, just one.  I quoted the ones that they could have been called for.

The "attempt to secure a takedown" is the only one where there might be a little bit of an argument.   But still, handfighting is not an attempt to secure a takedown.  It is an attempt to set up a takedown.

But please, how was what they were doing "wrestling aggressively in all positions" or "initiating an offense"?  Back up your statement with something other than "they were not stalling as per the rules" - I just quoted the rules, they were stalling.

Just rewatched the match.  I think the only attempts at shots Fix took were about 15 seconds into the match and with 15 seconds to go in the third.   Suriano didn't do much in the first, but I guess did have a few somewhat attempts in the second and third IMO.  Hindsight 20/20 of course but I think a double stall could've easily been called with about 1:00 to go in the 1st period (the announcers even noted that "they were surprised that 2 minutes in, neither one has really engaged the other").

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This match seemed to be mostly  about the refs making sure Surriano's hands hadn't even been in the same zipcode -- of all the inane obsessions, this one had to take the cake.  For every instance the match was stalled for mini-eternities, the evidence of Surriano locking his hands at the wrong time were almost too obviously absent. And if he did lock them for a quarter of a second while heading back to the mat -- who the hell cares?  The 25 minutes of wasted fretting over watching replays and then forgetting who was in what position, I would say the refs did a worse job than the two main characters, who essentially defaulted into borefest mode.  . The hands in the face was obvious -- the ref had to call that.  At that point, who cared how the match ended or who won.  The hands in the face was an easy way to put us out of our misery, even if way too late. 

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they were engaged the entire duration of the match... they were wrestling in the center of the mat... shots alone are not the definition of action or engagement...

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5 hours ago, unbiased said:

They both stalled from neutral the entire match according to the rules.. It is a bad product and bad for the sport. Fear of being taken down killed this match.

This is the correct answer and 100% accurate

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

you are picking and choosing what to quote and what not to quote... i just read through the entire section... they were not stalling as per the rules... 

saying handfighting is not an attempt to secure a takedown is a fabrication by you...

 

Now you’re proving that you don’t really understand the rules of folkstyle.  

Again, you should really just stop, because the hole you’re digging keeps getting bigger 

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21 minutes ago, LJB said:

they were engaged the entire duration of the match... they were wrestling in the center of the mat... shots alone are not the definition of action or engagement...

They were engaged using the same basic hand fighting techniques and doing absolutely nothing else.  That’s not high-quality wrestling by any definition.

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19 minutes ago, LJB said:

they were engaged the entire duration of the match... they were wrestling in the center of the mat... shots alone are not the definition of action or engagement...

You can still stall from the center of the mat

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of course you can... they were not...

of course the main evidence is that stalling was not called... all the whining and rule book wringing will not change that...

i didn't aniticipate a stall call during that match because of the way the each wrestle... it is not stalling... but, i am not in need of some manufactured action or a basketball score fest to appreciate high level wrestling...

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12 minutes ago, DEFan79 said:

Now you’re proving that you don’t really understand the rules of folkstyle.  

Again, you should really just stop, because the hole you’re digging keeps getting bigger 

was stalling called?

no?

mkay...

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2 minutes ago, Zebra said:

And I used to hit guys for it all the time. 

the head of referee recruitment in my state has been trying to get me to start reffing... i told him you don't want me reffing folk... i will throw stall calls out like they are going out of style... folk coaches/wrestlers/parents would absolutely hate me...

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Just now, DEFan79 said:

Because refs NEVER made mistakes. Poor argument.

just asking...

i mean they did call stalling at other points of that dual, yes?

but, not this match...

because they were not stalling...

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3 minutes ago, LJB said:

just asking...

i mean they did call stalling at other points of that dual, yes?

but, not this match...

because they were not stalling...

This is known as the “appeal to authority” logical fallacy. 

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14 minutes ago, LJB said:

of course the main evidence is that stalling was not called... all the whining and rule book wringing will not change that...

i didn't aniticipate a stall call during that match because of the way the each wrestle... it is not stalling... but, i am not in need of some manufactured action or a basketball score fest to appreciate high level wrestling...

Well that's a different argument.   Unfortunately stalling can be subjective and a lot of people don't like that.   Honestly the NCAA has done a decent job of taking some of the subjectivity out of it with the various 5 count situations.   But not sure what can be done to make it more objective from neutral.   A shot clock would probably be too complicated IMO.   Pushout might help but I just envision people going for pushouts all the time which would probably be boring too.

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Just now, 1032004 said:

Well that's a different argument.   Unfortunately stalling can be subjective and a lot of people don't like that.   Honestly the NCAA has done a decent job of taking some of the subjectivity out of it with the various 5 count situations.   But not sure what can be done to make it more objective from neutral.   A shot clock would probably be too complicated IMO.   Pushout might help but I just envision people going for pushouts all the time which would probably be boring too.

it is the same argument... 

the refs who are paid to call it didn't... why?

because they were not stalling as per the rules of folk...

you can't say they were afraid to call it because they were not afraid to drag the match out to make the right calls (which they did and did) and they damn sure were not afraid to end the match on a correctly called infraction of the worst rule in folk...

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