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Buckxell

Fix/Suriano - worst ncaa match of all time?

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2 minutes ago, unbiased said:

This isn't freestyle. Why do we have to try and make it freestyle?

Because there is enough similarity between the two styles that it makes a lot of sense to consider how one style resolves passivity when passivity is a problem in the other style and all attempts to fix it so far have not worked... Or you can just do nothing and let the problem continue as you seem to want. 

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35 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Any rule that “when called properly” works but is often not called properly is a rule that doesn’t work. How many more seasons of “if it were called properly...” do we have to endure?

Seriously, I've been following wrestling for 20 years and it's always "if they just called stalling" as the fix to everything.  No it isn't, make hard and fast rules that don't involve ref discretion.  Because EVERY SINGLE RULE that involves ref discretion is a bad rule, because they don't/won't call it when the match is on the line. 

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2 hours ago, Buckxell said:

 

Aside from the reffing fiasco, was there even one offensive attempt during the entire match? I lost 45 min of my life watching that nonsense. As KMF, all slap and tickle. Could anyone think of a less exciting / worse match?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Fix tried a few half-committed lefty hi-c's at the end of the match.  Other than that there was never a true committed attack.  

Edited by misterc

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Strictly from a promoting of action perspective, I'm also one for push out and shot clock.  Heck, even the no OT has worked well from the stand point of encouraging action.  How many times have we seen folkstyle matches just cruise on into OT, including the one we are talking about.  Now compare that to last second heroics we see in freestyle.  

Edited by misterc

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10 minutes ago, TFBJR said:

My biased view.  Suriano had his legs under his shoulders in a normal, aggressive stance the entire time.  Fix was bent 75 degrees at the waist and had his legs as far away as humanly possible.   It worked for him, but he clearly should have been dinged IMHO.  

Bent 75 degrees?  Is there a rule on this?  and are you sure it wasn't 84 degrees?

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2 minutes ago, misterc said:

Strictly from a promoting of action perspective, I'm also one for push out and shot clock.  Heck, even the no OT has worked well from the stand point of encouraging action.  How many times have we seen folkstyle matches just cruise on into OT, including the one we are talking about.  Now compare that to last second heroics we see in freestyle.  

Yeah, but overtime is the best.  We just need to get rid of the 30/30 TB. 

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26 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

No, because you have to score or get docked a point. If you mean fake aggression to not get out on the clock, that’s not the way it has worked at all in freestyle. The flaw with the rule is that determining who is more passive can be subjective (not always obvious). But it would significantly improve lack of action in folkstyle.

I don't follow freestyle, so honestly made the wrong assumption about how this rule works.

As Gantry says above, the stalling rules just do not work. It's almost like refs have a formula in mind - they call the first stalling when there's 17 seconds left in the match, leaving just a small enough amount of time so that they don't have to call it again and affect the score. On the other hand, I also don't like the idea of stalling points deciding a match. Really, a no-win situation.

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take away the stoppages and there was nothing wrong with this match at all... they both displayed exactly what they have been taught their entire careers... use the hand fiohting to get your opponent out of position... don't take bad shots... 

the wrestling was very high level... the problem is that the rules of folk dictate that this is the way a match goes in those circumstances...

don't like it?

change the awful folk rules that reward not wrestling... 

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15 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Because there is enough similarity between the two styles that it makes a lot of sense to consider how one style resolves passivity when passivity is a problem in the other style and all attempts to fix it so far have not worked... Or you can just do nothing and let the problem continue as you seem to want. 

Passivity isn't resolved. It is still called in almost every match. You can't force a guy to take a shot no matter how many rules you put in place. Calling stalling when a wrestler is stalling isn't doing nothing. It's enforcing the rule that is already in place. Just because you make a new rule doesn't mean you care more about the sport and are trying to improve it. The problem isn't with the rules, its not enforcing them. If you didn't like the match then blame Suriano and Fix. There are certain rules that may never apply to a particular wrestler. If you ever see Nolf get called for stalling because he isn't pressing action, then I'll say we need a shot clock.

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11 minutes ago, teach said:

Bent 75 degrees?  Is there a rule on this?  and are you sure it wasn't 84 degrees?

No rule, but obviously keeping the legs way back won't help with a shot and will hinder the opponent's TD attempt.   

Certain it was 75 °.   Checked it twice.  RU BS - Computer Engineering '82.

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6 minutes ago, LJB said:

1-1 is not a foregone conclusion...

regardless, 1-1 still determines a winner and the wrestlers will wrestle with that rule set in mind...

Deciding who the winner is of a 1-1 score is ludicrous. Folk criteria is far superior. Whoever scores more points in regulation wins.

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2 minutes ago, unbiased said:

Kind of like mat wrestling in folk.

in a an elementary checkers vs chess way of thinking, yes...

the rules of folk dictate that fix vs suriano was wrestled exactly like they did... 

the rules of free dictate that fix vs suriano was wrestled exactly like they did at akron...

the modified rules of WNO dictated that fix vs suriano was wrestled exactly they did...

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

in a an elementary checkers vs chess way of thinking, yes...

the rules of folk dictate that fix vs suriano was wrestled exactly like they did... 

the rules of free dictate that fix vs suriano was wrestled exactly like they did at akron...

the modified rules of WNO dictated that fix vs suriano was wrestled exactly they did...

Rules don't dictate anything if you have the guts to take a freaking shot.

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Just now, unbiased said:

Rules don't dictate anything if you have the guts to take a freaking shot.

what is the point of any competition?

to win...

not to flail around hoping someone watching is entertained...

and yes, the rule set dictates everything... if it didn't then that match would not have been wrestled or decided like it was... or either of their previous matches...

it is asinine to expect fix or suriano to take a half ass shot and lose just to appease you...

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

what is the point of any competition?

to win...

not to flail around hoping someone watching is entertained...

and yes, the rule set dictates everything... if it didn't then that match would not have been wrestled or decided like it was... or either of their previous matches...

it is asinine to expect fix or suriano to take a half ass shot and lose just to appease you...

That must be why every freestyle event is packed to the gills, so people can win and all those fans don't care about being entertained. Folkstyle wrestling wasn't invented to give someone a trophy, it was invented like all other sports for entertainment. A score of 3-2 with no action and not even a real shot taken isn't going to hold an audience and then the sport dies. College wrestling programs are dropped because ad's aren't fans of the sport.

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4 minutes ago, unbiased said:

That must be why every freestyle event is packed to the gills, so people can win and all those fans don't care about being entertained. Folkstyle wrestling wasn't invented to give someone a trophy, it was invented like all other sports for entertainment. A score of 3-2 with no action and not even a real shot taken isn't going to hold an audience and then the sport dies. College wrestling programs are dropped because ad's aren't fans of the sport.

wrestling wasn't invented for entertainment... it was invented for competition... it is all you fan(atics) that are screaming for some manufactured entertainment... want excitement and entertaining wrestling, but, don't want the rule set that will enforce it... typical...

if college wrestling were to die, wrestling would still continue... 

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8 minutes ago, unbiased said:

That must be why every freestyle event is packed to the gills, so people can win and all those fans don't care about being entertained. Folkstyle wrestling wasn't invented to give someone a trophy, it was invented like all other sports for entertainment. A score of 3-2 with no action and not even a real shot taken isn't going to hold an audience and then the sport dies. College wrestling programs are dropped because ad's aren't fans of the sport.

Not sure where you get a lot of that. Do you think College wrestling had huge crowds in the early 1900s? And go to other countries to see what some people think of Freestyle (and greco). 

Your last sentence is essentially correct. Might not be the only answer but it is one of them.

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12 minutes ago, LJB said:

wrestling wasn't invented for entertainment... it was invented for competition... it is all you fan(atics) that are screaming for some manufactured entertainment... want excitement and entertaining wrestling, but, don't want the rule set that will enforce it... typical...

if college wrestling were to die, wrestling would still continue... 

There is no need to have a rule in place that punishes wrestlers for not wrestling. There are rules that reward you for actually wrestling. If that isn't incentive enough I don't know what is. Like I said you can implement all the rules  you want but you can't make a guy wrestle if he doesn't want to but it's a competition so as long as the winner is happy the thousands watching should keep there opinions to themselves I guess.

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College wrestling is not the driving force that keeps the sport "alive." It only appeals to people who already know, understand and enjoy the sport.

Its ability to "grow the sport" is also tremendously exaggerated. Most kids don't go into sports with the intention of becoming a collegiate athlete either. Tons of high school athletes say that they want to play their sport in college, but the vast majority of them are just saying that because it sounds nice. You would be surprised how many high school wrestlers don't have a clue who some of the top stars in the sport are. 

The reality is, in order to grow the sport you need to increase participation at the local level. Jason Nolf, Bo Nickal, and Spencer Lee doing amazing things is not going to do that. The local no named Youth and middle school coaches are. Unfortunately, not many wrestling people want to "work in the trenches." When I was coaching I building my staff the biggest hurdle I came across was people not being interested in coaching at the youth/middle school level. They wanted to coach at the high school level, where kids already had an idea of what they were doing. Many of them felt that coaching at the youth/middle school level was "beneath" them.

Its actually not that difficult to get the younger kids riled up and excited about trying wrestling. Present them with an opportunity to be a local star/hero. Its just IMO not enough people feel like doing it. If more former wrestlers were willing to start/coach at the youth levels, programs would grow and eventually it would filter up to the top. Getting a kid to come out for and be successful at the high school level is too late. Often times the ones that do say stuff like "I wish I had started wrestling earlier!"

Kids that grow up enjoying and understanding the sport are the ones who become fans of the sport after they're done competing. Its not a sport that someone off the street can casually watch and enjoy/understand and suddenly become a fan of. This goes for all styles.

Wrestling fans are fans of certain wrestlers because they admire them because theyve overcome the adversities of the sport. Former wrestlers understand those adversities.. 

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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1 minute ago, unbiased said:

There is no need to have a rule in place that punishes wrestlers for not wrestling. There are rules that reward you for actually wrestling. If that isn't incentive enough I don't know what is. Like I said you can implement all the rules  you want but you can't make a guy wrestle if he doesn't want to but it's a competition so as long as the winner is happy the thousands watching should keep there opinions to themselves I guess.

anyone can have any uneducated opinion they want... they just have to realize it is holds little value and damn sure won't impart any change...

IMHO, if a fan(atic) is not capable of appreciating the competition for what it is, then do they really matter?

nope... not one bit...

i have been entertained by every match that fix and suriano have had... i think every one has been a near perfect example of positional wrestling against two ridiculously high level athletes... even with the ending of the last match on a correctly implemented call on a ridiculous rule...  

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