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Fix/Suriano - worst ncaa match of all time?

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Current folkstyle stalling rules penalize wrestlers for not creating action but don't encourage them to create it more at all. Many times you see wrestlers attempting to make it look like they're not stalling if anything. In addition, how many different stalling rules does folk currently have?

  • Not creating action on their feet
  • Interlocking hands (in a sense)
  • Hands to the face
  • Failing to attempt mat return
  • Out of bounds (pushing out and not letting the wrestler back into the circle)
  • Side headlock
  • Holding the ankle from top, etc...

To me it is becoming ridiculous. 

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4 minutes ago, cornercoach said:

..... the final score should have been 11-10 for somebody and the ref should have made every call perfectly and reviewed the video in 7 seconds or less ....how can we tolerate any other result .........

That's asking for too much.

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If youth coaches and HS coaches weren't preaching win at all costs (and I am not saying its all of them by any stretch) instead of trying to improve each day, we wouldn't have the stand around and do what you can to keep the score close so you can win it in the third by a point mentality.

Edited by unbiased

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7 minutes ago, unbiased said:

If youth coaches and HS coaches weren't preaching win at all costs (and I am not saying its all of them by any stretch) instead of trying to improve each day, we wouldn't have the stand around and do what you can to keep the score close so you can win it in the third by a point mentality.

while i agree wholeheartedly with this thought, i can say without hesitation having been around fix for years during his age group and HS career, he was not subjected to win at all costs mentality... he wrestled everywhere and everyone and the outcome (while rarely in doubt) was not the end goal...

still didn't change how those two have wrestled basically every minute of every match... 

and now being part of programs where winning is important for people's jobs, to expect anything more or less is just setting yourself up for disappointment... i believe you said the same earlier...

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7 minutes ago, LJB said:

while i agree wholeheartedly with this thought, i can say without hesitation having been around fix for years during his age group and HS career, he was not subjected to win at all costs mentality... he wrestled everywhere and everyone and the outcome (while rarely in doubt) was not the end goal...

still didn't change how those two have wrestled basically every minute of every match... 

and now being part of programs where winning is important for people's jobs, to expect anything more or less is just setting yourself up for disappointment... i believe you said the same earlier...

I understand that winning is why most coaches keep their jobs but I can also think of a few who do simply because their team doesn't cause any headaches. My reasoning for the winning at all costs post was more of a point to why a number of these close matches are wrestled the way they are. Nothing against Fix or Suriano when they wrestle anyone else but I am not a fan of how this match was so stagnant.

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3 minutes ago, unbiased said:

I understand that winning is why most coaches keep their jobs but I can also think of a few who do simply because their team doesn't cause any headaches. My reasoning for the winning at all costs post was more of a point to why a number of these close matches are wrestled the way they are. Nothing against Fix or Suriano when they wrestle anyone else but I am not a fan of how this match was so stagnant.

i disagree that it was stagnant... i was on the edge of my seat the entire time... in my mind, it was super compelling wrestling, but, i don't need points to feel like it was a great match...

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10 minutes ago, LJB said:

i disagree that it was stagnant... i was on the edge of my seat the entire time... in my mind, it was super compelling wrestling, but, i don't need points to feel like it was a great match...

Any chance you were on the edge of your seat because of who they are and not because it was an exciting match?

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2 minutes ago, unbiased said:

Any chance you were on the edge of your seat because of who they are and not because it was an exciting match?

both... i thought it was an exciting match... one wrong move... one half step out of position... one break in concentration and it was over for either one... that is riveting to me... it is high level wrestling... i would much rather see that than sloppy wrestling... a basketball score does not make an exciting match... it can, but, it is not a requirement

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

both... i thought it was an exciting match... one wrong move... one half step out of position... one break in concentration and it was over for either one... that is riveting to me... it is high level wrestling... i would much rather see that than sloppy wrestling... a basketball score does not make an exciting match... it can, but, it is not a requirement

I agree but that one half step out of position... one break in concentration didn't have to mean it was all over. That could have happen in the first period, the second period and the third. Which is what makes for better wrestling to me. One guy gets one and the other guy has to get his. Neither guy attempting is way less appealing. I also agree that high scoring doesn't make for a better match but it usually helps.

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22 minutes ago, LJB said:

both... i thought it was an exciting match... one wrong move... one half step out of position... one break in concentration and it was over for either one... that is riveting to me... it is high level wrestling... i would much rather see that than sloppy wrestling... a basketball score does not make an exciting match... it can, but, it is not a requirement

Its exciting because you understand how wrestling works beyond superficial scores. This is how I feel when I watch a wrestler put on a tough ride as well. To me a tough ride on top is impressive.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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10 minutes ago, WillieBoy said:

As shot clock.

What will it do to a counter wrestler?

A Dake vs Taylor type of match?

Do you penalize a wrestler who is waiting on his opponent for an opening?

It encourages either wrestler to create action.  

Dake actually does a good job of creating action when he's on the clock.  He doubled legged Taylor to the adjacent mat one of the last times he was put on the clock against Taylor.

You can create action to create openings just as well.  Again, we've seen Dake do this so that he can get a crotch lift in.

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29 minutes ago, unbiased said:

I agree but that one half step out of position... one break in concentration didn't have to mean it was all over. That could have happen in the first period, the second period and the third. Which is what makes for better wrestling to me. One guy gets one and the other guy has to get his. Neither guy attempting is way less appealing. I also agree that high scoring doesn't make for a better match but it usually helps.

not "better" wrestling... maybe more entertaining to you, but, 100% not "better"... no wrestler is taught to take a crappy shot that will get them countered... not one... that is not good wrestling... 

some people like watching others make a mistake... it does add for manufactured drama and can make for an "exciting" match where someone has to throw the kitchen sink at his opponent which more often than not does not end up with the win...

perhaps the wrestlers should do rock paper scissors at the start of every match to see who starts with 2pts... that would sure make for some "exciting" matches...  

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21 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Its exciting because you understand how wrestling works beyond superficial scores. This is how I feel when I watch a wrestler put on a tough ride as well. To me a tough ride on top is impressive.

it is how i feel when i see a well executed gut or an even better gut defense, but, neither par terre nor a mat ride is manufactured drama...

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20 minutes ago, LJB said:

not "better" wrestling... maybe more entertaining to you, but, 100% not "better"... no wrestler is taught to take a crappy shot that will get them countered... not one... that is not good wrestling... 

some people like watching others make a mistake... it does add for manufactured drama and can make for an "exciting" match where someone has to throw the kitchen sink at his opponent which more often than not does not end up with the win...

perhaps the wrestlers should do rock paper scissors at the start of every match to see who starts with 2pts... that would sure make for some "exciting" matches...  

That's why I said better to me. Just because someone is in good defensive position and you take a shot doesn't mean that the shot is bad. You have to be better offensively then they are defensively. That comes with confidence in yourself and a belief that you can beat your opponent to a certain position. A lot of guys let people in on their legs on purpose. To each his own. I say again hand fighting for around 8 minutes with no takedowns may be exciting to some but I would think their is an overwhelming majority that doesn't find it too appealing and I think it is bad for the sport if it continues to produce these outcomes. It's not just about high scoring matches but more action in general.

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45 minutes ago, misterc said:

It encourages either wrestler to create action.  

Dake actually does a good job of creating action when he's on the clock.  He doubled legged Taylor to the adjacent mat one of the last times he was put on the clock against Taylor.

You can create action to create openings just as well.  Again, we've seen Dake do this so that he can get a crotch lift in.

So does stalling.

So he can be passive as long as he wants until he is put on the clock and then he becomes offensive.

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5 minutes ago, unbiased said:

That's why I said better to me. Just because someone is in good defensive position and you take a shot doesn't mean that the shot is bad. You have to be better offensively then they are defensively. That comes with confidence in yourself and a belief that you can beat your opponent to a certain position. A lot of guys let people in on their legs on purpose. To each his own. I say again hand fighting for around 8 minutes with no takedowns may be exciting to some but I would think their is an overwhelming majority that doesn't find it too appealing and I think it is bad for the sport if it continues to produce these outcomes. It's not just about high scoring matches but more action in general.

you said it, but, it is incorrect... it is not better... more entertaining possibly, but again, 100% not better... 

if you take a shot, can't finish, and get countered for a score it is by very definition a "bad shot"... not one coach has ever taught a wrestler to take a shot, get countered and scored upon... i feel very confident in saying that...

if they had both bounced around the outside, not engaged, ran around the mat, or even worse, ran to the edge for safety i would be the most vocal on this forum about what a horrible match it was... but, that is not at all what happened... they both stayed in the center of the mat and engaged... they are both just too damn solid at wrestling and stylistically it was always going to be like it was...

 

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

you said it, but, it is incorrect... it is not better... more entertaining possibly, but again, 100% not better... 

if you take a shot, can't finish, and get countered for a score it is by very definition a "bad shot"... not one coach has ever taught a wrestler to take a shot, get countered and scored upon... i feel very confident in saying that...

if they had both bounced around the outside, not engaged, ran around the mat, or even worse, ran to the edge for safety i would be the most vocal on this forum about what a horrible match it was... but, that is not at all what happened... they both stayed in the center of the mat and engaged... they are both just too damn solid at wrestling and stylistically it was always going to be like it was...

 

I'll pass on the first response.

That isn't a bad shot. A bad shot is when you are five feet away from your opponent and dive at him only to come within two feet of him. Just because you get countered on a shot doesn't mean you took at bad shot it means you failed to score. It could have been a good shot or a bad shot. What is more telling is that you didn't keep yourself in good position to not be scored on or the other guy might just be better than you in this position. It is possible to stay in the center of the mat and stall. Take two people out of the crowd who have never wrestled before in there lives put them on the mat and tell me that if they did the same thing you wouldn't think it was stalling? I think this is accepted more because of who these two young men are and the reputations that they have built.

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in training, an exhibition, youth wrestling... i agree 100% with what you are trying to say, but...

in any match where it really matters... anything where there is actually something on the line (and i think this match qualifies)... any shot that you take that you can't finish and get countered and scored on is a bad shot... 

 

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There's a difference between a bad shot and a bad finish. You can have a great shot that didn't result in a TD because the finish didn't deliver. The whole point of wrestling is to take calculated risk, which by definition, implies that no matter how good the shot, there is the potential for a counter. 

 

The issues here are taking ZERO risk and how to prevent that from happening with rules.

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I was watching the match live and enjoyed it as both Fix and Suriano are very good wrestlers.  I agree they were both cautious but that can happen when guys are working to get the other out of position for their scoring opportunities.   Back in the day we had "C" class and "A" class boxing matches.  The fans got more excited for the "C" class fights because these fighters didn't have the skill/experience to "slip" a punch.  Thus, haymakers abound and mouthpieces were flying...crowd loved it.  Better fighters come in and sometimes the crowds didn't appreciate the skilled fighters as much.  This is the same in today's mma.

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12 hours ago, unbiased said:

I agree but that one half step out of position... one break in concentration didn't have to mean it was all over. That could have happen in the first period, the second period and the third. Which is what makes for better wrestling to me. One guy gets one and the other guy has to get his. Neither guy attempting is way less appealing. I also agree that high scoring doesn't make for a better match but it usually helps.

Please, stop.

The hand-fighting was good but you are drastically overselling the quality of the match.  Both wrestlers actually displayed VERY little variety in their hand-fighting and attempts to get each other out of position.  It was the same thing over and over and over again for several minutes, with neither guy even really attempting to change it up.

stop pretending this was some super high level match. It clearly wasn’t. Even with that, both guys had a couple of openings and did absolutely nothing with them. 

This was not high quality wrestling. It was two high quality wrestlers afraid to lose and not wrestling to win

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