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Fix/Suriano - worst ncaa match of all time?

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4 hours ago, DEFan79 said:

Please, stop.

The hand-fighting was good but you are drastically overselling the quality of the match.  Both wrestlers actually displayed VERY little variety in their hand-fighting and attempts to get each other out of position.  It was the same thing over and over and over again for several minutes, with neither guy even really attempting to change it up.

stop pretending this was some super high level match. It clearly wasn’t. Even with that, both guys had a couple of openings and did absolutely nothing with them. 

This was not high quality wrestling. It was two high quality wrestlers afraid to lose and not wrestling to win

I think you quoted the wrong post.

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7 minutes ago, bp2xbw said:

Watched the match.  If the ref had any balls he would have banged them both for stalling starting in the first period. Maybe, that would have opened them up.m As it turned out, the ref is vilified anyway for his match.

Agree with this 

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2 hours ago, bp2xbw said:

Watched the match.  If the ref had any balls he would have banged them both for stalling starting in the first period. Maybe, that would have opened them up.m As it turned out, the ref is vilified anyway for his match.

The refs excuse for failing to call stalling is always "let the wrestlers decide who wins." The mantra should be "call stalling and make the wrestlers decide who wins." 

I agree 100% with your post.

The thought of these two meeting in the NCAA finals ought to scare the hell out of anyone concerned about the future of D1 wrestling.

 

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2 hours ago, bp2xbw said:

Watched the match.  If the ref had any balls he would have banged them both for stalling starting in the first period. Maybe, that would have opened them up.m As it turned out, the ref is vilified anyway for his match.

they were not stalling as per the rules of folk...

don't blame the wrestlers, don't blame the ref... blame the rules of folk that rewards not wrestling...

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14 minutes ago, LJB said:

they were not stalling as per the rules of folk...

don't blame the wrestlers, don't blame the ref... blame the rules of folk that rewards not wrestling...

My argument as well.  Not stalling does not equal creating action.  

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18 minutes ago, LJB said:

they were not stalling as per the rules of folk...

don't blame the wrestlers, don't blame the ref... blame the rules of folk that rewards not wrestling...

blame the rules of folk that rewards not wrestling

Does this mean you are saying they were not wrestling?

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5 minutes ago, LJB said:

i'm saying they were wrestling to the rules of folk...

don't like it?

blame folk...

 

5.9.2 Neutral Position Stalling. Each wrestler must attempt to work toward the center of the mat and continue wrestling in an attempt to secure a takedown, regardless of the time or score of the match.

Now granted this rule is from 2017 so if any changes were made or this does not apply now I can accept that.

Seeing this in print do you honestly think that either of them made an attempt to secure a takedown?

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I know this is not a popular opinion but, I really did enjoy the match and thought it was very exciting.  If you take out the long delays.  During the match it was a chess match, and I believe it would have ended at some point with a take down.  Just taking shots would require one of the wrestlers to probably lose.  If you are not wiling to do that, then you wait for an opening.  If that doesn't come, or you miss it?  If stalling was called it would have had to be called on both and how would that help?  Otherwise the ref could have decided who wins by just calling one of them, and do we want that?  I do not believe you are stalling just because you are not scoring.  I understand most of you do not feel this way.  I love watching Folkstyle.

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1 minute ago, teach said:

I know this is not a popular opinion but, I really did enjoy the match and thought it was very exciting.  If you take out the long delays.  During the match it was a chess match, and I believe it would have ended at some point with a take down.  Just taking shots would require one of the wrestlers to probably lose.  If you are not wiling to do that, then you wait for an opening.  If that doesn't come, or you miss it?  If stalling was called it would have had to be called on both and how would that help?  Otherwise the ref could have decided who wins by just calling one of them, and do we want that?  I do not believe you are stalling just because you are not scoring.  I understand most of you do not feel this way.  I love watching Folkstyle.

This is very true but neither attempted to score from neutral.

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4 minutes ago, teach said:

I know this is not a popular opinion but, I really did enjoy the match and thought it was very exciting.  If you take out the long delays.  During the match it was a chess match, and I believe it would have ended at some point with a take down.  Just taking shots would require one of the wrestlers to probably lose.  If you are not wiling to do that, then you wait for an opening.  If that doesn't come, or you miss it?  If stalling was called it would have had to be called on both and how would that help?  Otherwise the ref could have decided who wins by just calling one of them, and do we want that?  I do not believe you are stalling just because you are not scoring.  I understand most of you do not feel this way.  I love watching Folkstyle.

^ this...

all except folk is the devil...

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Maybe attempt is what I am hung up on?   If I am hand fighting and trying to get position but just can't seems to get in a spot to make a move, is that an attempt?  I am not saying it is, but I can say that in heavy weight matches, for example, you can work very hard and not make a real shot.

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54 minutes ago, LJB said:

they were not stalling as per the rules of folk...

don't blame the wrestlers, don't blame the ref... blame the rules of folk that rewards not wrestling...

You've made your point regarding folkstyle on this forum and The Underground Forum hundreds of times over the years.  We get it.  You don't like folkstyle.    

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

that is actually a good point, by the whining on this thread, every heavy match is the absolute worst wrestling and should be decided on stall calls in the first 30 seconds of the match...

I don't think anyone wants to see stall calls in a match unless wrestlers are stalling. I am not a fan of stalling and it wouldn't be needed if wrestlers made an attempt at a takedown. I don't know if you are referring to me about the whining comment but I am not whining I just don't think praising these two wrestlers for their efforts in this match is good for the sport.

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1 minute ago, unbiased said:

I don't think anyone wants to see stall calls in a match unless wrestlers are stalling. I am not a fan of stalling and it wouldn't be needed if wrestlers made an attempt at a takedown. I don't know if you are referring to me about the whining comment but I am not whining I just don't think praising these two wrestlers for their efforts in this match is good for the sport.

i think people don't understand what stalling really is...

just diving in on legs and hanging on for dear life is a stall tactic that most everyone is ok with... i mean, it's a shot right? 

 

dude makes the perfect point about heavies... same match except add 100+ lbs on them and everyone is ok with it...

 

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5 minutes ago, Frank_Rizzo said:

You've made your point regarding folkstyle on this forum and The Underground Forum hundreds of times over the years.  We get it.  You don't like folkstyle.    

yep... and i'll keep doing it...

particularly when you have people whining about how bad a match was that was wrestled strategically to the rules of folk...

and i will state again for those that have just joined the party... i thought the match was very compelling and very high level wrestling... 

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3 minutes ago, LJB said:

i think people don't understand what stalling really is...

just diving in on legs and hanging on for dear life is a stall tactic that most everyone is ok with... i mean, it's a shot right? 

 

dude makes the perfect point about heavies... same match except add 100+ lbs on them and everyone is ok with it...

 

I agree a lot of people don't.

Diving in on legs and hanging on can mean a couple of different things but you can't blatantly call it stalling especially at the youth and HS level. If it is an attempt at a takedown then its not stalling, but as you alluded to the hanging on for their life, it usually ends in a stalemate (which is a whole other topic) but it can be stalling. Heavyweight is turning a corner for the better. The days of 2-1 are in the rearview.

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3 minutes ago, unbiased said:

I agree a lot of people don't.

Diving in on legs and hanging on can mean a couple of different things but you can't blatantly call it stalling especially at the youth and HS level. If it is an attempt at a takedown then its not stalling, but as you alluded to the hanging on for their life, it usually ends in a stalemate (which is a whole other topic) but it can be stalling. Heavyweight is turning a corner for the better. The days of 2-1 are in the rearview.

i disagree completely... it clearly is stalling... it is clearly not an attempt at a takedown... it is an action to burn 20-30 seconds off the clock... that is it... but, hey... it's a shot right?

 

and yes, the bear dancing that is heavies is much better now than it was even a few years ago, but, the point is salient... that exact match with an additional 100+ lbs on those kids and no one is complaining about it... i'm a little jealous i didn't think of that first...

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Watch the match and see if FIx's legs were ever in reach.  If not, no way should NS have taken a shot  just to please this board.   Absent the HTTF call he would have won that match on riding time advantage in UTB by taking down.  

 

The whole thing was an abortion.  I like the idea of dual-stall calls and have them mix it up.   

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9 minutes ago, LJB said:

i disagree completely... it clearly is stalling... it is clearly not an attempt at a takedown... it is an action to burn 20-30 seconds off the clock... that is it... but, hey... it's a shot right?

 

and yes, the bear dancing that is heavies is much better now than it was even a few years ago, but, the point is salient... that exact match with an additional 100+ lbs on those kids and no one is complaining about it... i'm a little jealous i didn't think of that first...

I'm ok with us disagreeing.

Edited by unbiased

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