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kgschalhoub

Meaningless dual meet season?

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I do not understand all the chatter about the dual meet season being meaningless and only the national tournament is important. First, dual meets are fun to watch and are part of the wrestling season and culture. Second, how is the dual season any different from the college basketball season? They play 30+ games which have some effect on their national tournament seeding, but then they play the conference tournament which trumps much of what happened in the regular season. So what? The games are fun to watch. No different than duals. Let's enjoy what we have and not worry about ducks.

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Because in basketball you have team seeds, in wrestling you have individual seeds.  You can't skip a game in basketball and have it not affect your seeding against a tough opponent.  Duals are more and more missing the best or second best matchup on a consistent basis, that takes the enjoyment out of it as a fanbase, which by and large already struggles with attendance outside of the top 10. 

Edited by Gantry

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3 hours ago, kgschalhoub said:

I do not understand all the chatter about the dual meet season being meaningless and only the national tournament is important. First, dual meets are fun to watch and are part of the wrestling season and culture. Second, how is the dual season any different from the college basketball season? They play 30+ games which have some effect on their national tournament seeding, but then they play the conference tournament which trumps much of what happened in the regular season. So what? The games are fun to watch. No different than duals. Let's enjoy what we have and not worry about ducks.

 

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People give wrestlers a lot of **** for missing duals, but I don't really get it. Dual meets don't really mean anything, and probably aren't worth getting another loss on your record. It's up to the NCAA to give coaches/wrestlers more of an incentive to show up for duals.

 

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6 minutes ago, mg113 said:

People give wrestlers a lot of **** for missing duals, but I don't really get it. Dual meets don't really mean anything, and probably aren't worth getting another loss on your record. It's up to the NCAA to give coaches/wrestlers more of an incentive to show up for duals.

 

I agree, we should go back to the golden era of wrestling when you could win the NCAA's with only ~5 matches

Harold DeMarsh (1927 - 1928)
Bout Results for 1928
 
Date Type Location Weight Opponent School Score
1928-02-09 Dual Away 115 Cooper West Virginia W
1928-02-17 Dual Home 115 Lelia Kansas State WBF 2:16
1928-02-25 Dual Home 115 Cornick Cornell Iowa W
1928-03-31 NCAA Iowa State 115 Leach Oklahoma W
1928-03-31 NCAA Iowa State 115 Higgins Iowa State W

 

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1 hour ago, mg113 said:

People give wrestlers a lot of **** for missing duals, but I don't really get it. Dual meets don't really mean anything, and probably aren't worth getting another loss on your record. It's up to the NCAA to give coaches/wrestlers more of an incentive to show up for duals.

 

Why give paying fans what they want and what they pay money for when its easier to game the system and try at all costs to get the highest seed you can without actually wrestling matches. They love the sports so much that they don't want to do it. This kind of reminds me (very loose comparison) of a thief that spends countless hours and time on a plan to rob someone instead of putting time and energy into a job an earning an honest living. Duals are awesome if you have two teams that want to win. Coaches that don't care about duals, don't care about their fans.

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Am I being overly pessimistic or has this been the worst NCAA wrestling season in recent years? CKLV was pretty good and there have been a few high quality duals but the rest has been underwhelming.  Media coverage and freestyle wrestling are dramatically improving but college wrestling seems to be lagging behind.  

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4 hours ago, unbiased said:

Why give paying fans what they want and what they pay money for when its easier to game the system and try at all costs to get the highest seed you can without actually wrestling matches. They love the sports so much that they don't want to do it. This kind of reminds me (very loose comparison) of a thief that spends countless hours and time on a plan to rob someone instead of putting time and energy into a job an earning an honest living. Duals are awesome if you have two teams that want to win. Coaches that don't care about duals, don't care about their fans.

I honestly believe that if Spencer was 100%, Brands would have gladly wrestled him. However, for whatever reason, Brands thought it would be in Spencer's long term interest to sit him out this meet. Saying that Spencer owes it to the fans to wrestle, even if it might cost him in March, is some pretty selfish crap. Besides, the match was at Northwestern, hypothetically those fans payed to see SEABASS wrestle, so they got their money's worth.

Also, sitting out a match isn't "gaming the system," you still have to wrestle conference and nationals, so it's not like you can just hide all season.
 

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To my knowledge one great dual in D-I this year, UM vs. OSU.  Kind of bout that will draw fans into the stands.  Otherwise, a pretty ho-hum year.

Would like to see 10 duals per year, dual season beginning in Dec.  In November, all the opens you care to attend.  December to conference/qualifier, one tournament a month.

Would also like to revisit the old idea of four super regions, top eight in each region going to nationals, wildcards by committee.

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Duals are fun for the fans and I think the teams like them as well. Wrestlers love a chance to show their stuff if they are worth their salt at all. That said, the NCAA Tournament is the crown jewel, the ultimate goal, and always has been. I'm not a fan of a National Duals Championship though.

Edited by TobusRex

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21 hours ago, DrStrange said:

duals are the biggest financial cost for wrestling programs.  still worth it?  

I don't know how that would be. At least at the duals there are, presumably, fans buying tickets. Even if it is only a 100 fans, that's still 100 fans buying tickets. Those fans are going to buy concessions as well. What's the expenses involved? Not much: team managers roll out the mats, whatever electricity is used to light the venue for the event. I suppose security will cost something.

The expenses that make college wrestling relatively expensive are 1) travel costs 2) scholarships.  Gear wise the most expensive thing required in wrestling are wrestling mats, and they are dirty cheap compared to the maintenance of football/baseball fields.

Edited by TobusRex

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Duals don't matter because the top program in the sport's Head Coach says they don't.

If he and his orange counterpart refuse to dual and continue to put the ban on any real type of team competition in the name of "tradition" and program selfishness than the sport will never grow out of the dying cycle it currently sits in.  

Tom Ryan tweeted about how duals should determine a title and he just got beaten on Friday.  Sometimes decisions to made need to be considered outside the realm of self interest. 

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Cael Sanderson says Duals are important. His teams show up to wrestle too.

He just doesn't believe duals are the proper way to determine the NCAA Championship. 

Duals are as meaningful or meaningless as a program makes them. PSU makes their scheduled duals a priority. Un necessary ducking is for other teams. 

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20 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Cael Sanderson says Duals are important. His teams show up to wrestle too.

He just doesn't believe duals are the proper way to determine the NCAA Championship. 

Duals are as meaningful or meaningless as a program makes them. PSU makes their scheduled duals a priority. Un necessary ducking is for other teams. 

That is the point. The coaches and fans determine the value of duals. And if you look at attendance, and not just in BIG, but around the country, people come to watch and enjoy duals. They are part of the season, let's enjoy them and hope more coaches have Cael's attitude.

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On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 6:41 PM, mg113 said:

I honestly believe that if Spencer was 100%, Brands would have gladly wrestled him. However, for whatever reason, Brands thought it would be in Spencer's long term interest to sit him out this meet. Saying that Spencer owes it to the fans to wrestle, even if it might cost him in March, is some pretty selfish crap. Besides, the match was at Northwestern, hypothetically those fans payed to see SEABASS wrestle, so they got their money's worth.

Also, sitting out a match isn't "gaming the system," you still have to wrestle conference and nationals, so it's not like you can just hide all season.
 

Apparently Spencer hasn't been 100% all year. Welcome to college wrestling. I don't think this was Spencer's call.  If the kid can't wrestle then he shouldn't wrestle. If he has/had mono like most are speculating he has/had then why would he have not skipped all the other duals from December until now? It just seems odd that this was a (planned?) dual to skip.  Any match Spencer wrestles could cost him in March, so hey, let's not have wrestling until March? Nobody went to that dual to watch Rivera wrestle Perez. You don't have to wrestle the Conference tournament if you have an automatic bid to the NCAA's. You can MFF out of the tournament. I wasn't talking about Spencer in particular. My comment was for the general collegiate wrestling population.

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Here's a question.  Was Brands a fan of National Duals?  If so, could he be sitting his guys out to prove a point?  Almost as a way of saying, "Fine if you want to make duals meaningless, there's no point in wrestling them full strength so I can sit out whomever I'd like."

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What is alternative for those who don't like duals/don't want duals or think duals are meaningless. Should coaches be incentivized for dual meet wins? Should we kill duals altogether? Just go to a seasonal tournament schedule?

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