Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jimmy Cinnabon

A proposal to address ducking

Recommended Posts

For seeding purposes how about viewing a duck as a "half loss"?

Meaning if a wrestler's record is 20-5 but he has 2 ducks his record effectively becomes 20-6.  That way when compared to another wrestler who also has a 20-5 record but no ducks the non-ducker gets a slight seeding advantage.

I would define a "duck" as failing to start a match, for a non-injury/illness related reason, after competing a match in full within 3 calendar days.

Thoughts?

 

Of course the big issue seems that coaches could easily just claim a wrestler had sustained an injury/illness to game the system.

Edited by Jimmy Cinnabon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

Won't work. We can't have kids who are actually hurt go out there and risk further injury for fear of being penalized.

That's why I said it would only be counted as a duck if you miss the match for non-injury/illness related reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

For seeding purposes how about viewing a duck as a "half loss"?

Meaning if a wrestler's record is 20-5 but he has 2 ducks his record effectively becomes 20-6.  That way when compared to another wrestler who also has a 20-5 record but no ducks the non-ducker gets a slight seeding advantage.

I would define a "duck" as failing to start a match, for a non-injury/illness related reason, after competing a match in full within 3 calendar days or if Evan Wick comes to town.

Thoughts?

 

Of course the big issue seems that coaches could easily just claim a wrestler had sustained an injury/illness to game the system.

FIFY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

If you knew how many bodyfat/hydration tests were fudged you'd see how easy this would be to navigate around.

I acknowledge it's not a perfect solution, but there never is one.  Put the onus on coaches to actively lie to subvert the rule.  It's still better than the current situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

Won't work. We can't have kids who are actually hurt go out there and risk further injury for fear of being penalized.

They do in every other sport where the regular season matters.  They do in wrestling in the postseason.  It's all a matter of risk/reward.  When the reward is zero you don't wrestle even at 99%.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

That's why I said it would only be counted as a duck if you miss the match for non-injury/illness related reasons.

And who decides that? Also, there is barely a wrestler at any point in the season w/o some sort of injury/illness issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

And who decides that? Also, there is barely a wrestler at any point in the season w/o some sort of injury/illness issue.

The head coach.  Make him come out and declare that the wrestler has an injury.  He doesn't have to specify (publicly) what it is, but make him put pen to paper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, headshuck said:

How does professional tennis, NASCAR and other sports calculate seeds in tournaments and poll positions? Some sort of points. We need something like that. You get sick or injured, tough, it affects your seeding.

 

Consider also ANOTHER possibility: SANDBAGGING. I've seen examples of sandbagging in HS regional tourneys (to avoid certain folks at state).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My proposal is predominately focused on seeding for season end conference tournaments.  And for such purpose the dual record is held by the weight class, not the individual wrestler.   Thus if the regular starter needs a break (is sick, dinged up, wants to go to a wedding ...) then they coach has an incentive to put in the best replacement in the dual meet to win the match and/or give said wrestler a break when he knows the backup has a good chance to win.  If could also control the NCAA rules I'd combine such with allowing those on redshirt to compete just like football allows 4 competitions.  Now with wrestling it might need to be something like a) 2 open tourneys & 1 dual, b) 1 open tourney & 2 duals, or c) 3 dual meets.  Fans could also get excited about this because they get a chance to see the redshirts and the backups wrestle, should hopefully eliminate forfeits in dual meets.  

It could still be up to individual conferences in terms of how much weight to put on dual results vs tournaments.  For example in B10 perhaps put say 50% more weight on B10 duals than non conference and tournament.  I'd throw out head to head consideration (that encourages ducking) and go to common opponent to break any seeding ties (or consider head to head in tournaments as a first criteria but secondary to common opponents in duals).

An example, lets say the 141lb class has a conf dual record of 7-2, & non conf dual 3-0 and starter's tournament record of 6-1 and the backup's tournament record is 4-4.  If regular starter is good to go for conf tourney he has an in conf dual record of 7-2 and 9-1 out of conf (overall 16-3).  If the backup is in he is 7-2 and 7-4 (overall 14-6) for seeding purpose.  

NCAA could probably stick to pretty much what they currently use, maybe bit more weight on conference tournament result (perhaps ding guys losses and head to head result if they default to 7th place etc.)

Sure its not perfect (but the current isn't either) and the\ coaches aren't going to go for it anyway so we are just wasting time talking here.   I think it'd be fun to see more guys wrestle in the duals and see the stud redshirts get a chance to have an impact in a couple dual meets.  

Edited by ionel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

The head coach.  Make him come out and declare that the wrestler has an injury.  He doesn't have to specify (publicly) what it is, but make him put pen to paper.

This is getting dumber by the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

The NFL requires coaches to list players' injury statuses.

NCAA wrestling has a little less gambling plus the NFL administers it's own insurance which gets them around HIPAA regulations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Or heck, make coaches list it but keep it private then.  Would still help deter some cases of ducking.

Okay, so the head coach makes a list of all of his injuries then puts it in a safe and never lets anybody see it.

Problem solved!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My proposal is predominately focused on seeding for season end conference tournaments.  And for such purpose the dual record is held by the weight class, not the individual wrestler.   Thus if the regular starter needs a break (is sick, dinged up, wants to go to a wedding ...) then they coach has an incentive to put in the best replacement in the dual meet to win the match and/or give said wrestler a break when he knows the backup has a good chance to win.  If could also control the NCAA rules I'd combine such with allowing those on redshirt to compete just like football allows 4 competitions.  Now with wrestling it might need to be something like a) 2 open tourneys & 1 dual, b) 1 open tourney & 2 duals, or c) 3 dual meets.  Fans could also get excited about this because they get a chance to see the redshirts and the backups wrestle, should hopefully eliminate forfeits in dual meets.  
It could still be up to individual conferences in terms of how much weight to put on dual results vs tournaments.  For example in B10 perhaps put say 50% more weight on B10 duals than non conference and tournament.  I'd throw out head to head consideration (that encourages ducking) and go to common opponent to break any seeding ties (or consider head to head in tournaments as a first criteria but secondary to common opponents in duals).
An example, lets say the 141lb class has a conf dual record of 7-2, & non conf dual 3-0 and starter's tournament record of 6-1 and the backup's tournament record is 4-4.  If regular starter is good to go for conf tourney he has an in conf dual record of 7-2 and 9-1 out of conf (overall 16-3).  If the backup is in he is 7-2 and 7-4 (overall 14-6) for seeding purpose.  
NCAA could probably stick to pretty much what they currently use, maybe bit more weight on conference tournament result (perhaps ding guys losses and head to head result if they default to 7th place etc.)
Sure its not perfect (but the current isn't either) and the\ coaches aren't going to go for it anyway so we are just wasting time talking here.   I think it'd be fun to see more guys wrestle in the duals and see the stud redshirts get a chance to have an impact in a couple dual meets.  


I like this idea!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

4 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

For seeding purposes how about viewing a duck as a "half loss"?

Meaning if a wrestler's record is 20-5 but he has 2 ducks his record effectively becomes 20-6.  That way when compared to another wrestler who also has a 20-5 record but no ducks the non-ducker gets a slight seeding advantage.

I would define a "duck" as failing to start a match, for a non-injury/illness related reason, after competing a match in full within 3 calendar days.

Thoughts?

 

Of course the big issue seems that coaches could easily just claim a wrestler had sustained an injury/illness to game the system.

image.png.f9a5bf4929d152ed08b8ac25dda038b2.png

image.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...