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Gable Stevenson will go down as the greatest college wrestler ever

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The argument against this is that this looks to be Gable's easiest year. With all the young talent coming in the next three years it seems less likely that he will be undefeated over his career. Nelson, Gwiz, Snyder, even Coon knocked off Snyder. Highly unlikely to go undefeated but as a HWT it seems even less likely.

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Not in a million years.  HWT''s don't know half the wrestling that the other 9 weights do.  One good takedown and effective rideout makes any of them a title contender.  If Gable starts pinning people with leg cradles, spladles, and winn-dixie's, just to name a few, then maybe.  It is simply a different sport at 250lbs than it is for all the lighter weights.  HWT's don't really know how to wrestle, not compared to the lighter guys.

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9 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

Not in a million years.  HWT''s don't know half the wrestling that the other 9 weights do.  One good takedown and effective rideout makes any of them a title contender.  If Gable starts pinning people with leg cradles, spladles, and winn-dixie's, just to name a few, then maybe.  It is simply a different sport at 250lbs than it is for all the lighter weights.  HWT's don't really know how to wrestle, not compared to the lighter guys.

 

That's a ridiculous assertion. The difference between HWT and the other weights isn't in a lack of skill, it's in a surplus of strength/beef. Gwiz is probably a better technical wrestler than most the guys who won NCAA D1 titles when he was champ.

Edited by TobusRex

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8 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

Not in a million years.  HWT''s don't know half the wrestling that the other 9 weights do.  One good takedown and effective rideout makes any of them a title contender.  If Gable starts pinning people with leg cradles, spladles, and winn-dixie's, just to name a few, then maybe.  It is simply a different sport at 250lbs than it is for all the lighter weights.  HWT's don't really know how to wrestle, not compared to the lighter guys.

I’d argue against this. Some heavyweights know all the moves, all the chain wrestling combinations BUT they aren’t needed/used because of those that don’t know how to do anything but dance.

Dont discriminate against the whole class when I’d bet money there are plenty of heavyweights that know more about wrestling than even you do.

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11 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

Not in a million years.  HWT''s don't know half the wrestling that the other 9 weights do.  One good takedown and effective rideout makes any of them a title contender.  If Gable starts pinning people with leg cradles, spladles, and winn-dixie's, just to name a few, then maybe.  It is simply a different sport at 250lbs than it is for all the lighter weights.  HWT's don't really know how to wrestle, not compared to the lighter guys.

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8 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

 

That's a ridiculous assertion. The difference between HWT and the other weights isn't in a lack of skill, it's in a surplus of strength/beef. Gwiz is probably a better technical wrestler than most the guys who won NCAA D1 titles when he was champ.

Surplus of strength?  Haha!  Do they wrestle against stacks of iron, or do they wrestle against people of similar body weight?  Pound for pound, lighter weights are proportionally stronger, generally speaking.  There's a big difference between "knowing" a move and performing it when it counts in a match.  How many takedowns at HWT are simply variations of "he shoots, I sprawl/go behind"?  If heavies were actually hitting any chain wrestling combinations in matches it might be believable.  The best heavies in the country are very good wrestlers, no doubt, but there's no way they know (and perform) as much wrestling as the Nolf''s, Retherford's, Lee's, and Hall's of the world.  

Even if Gable did all of that, it still wouldn't be as impressive as Cael because none of Gable's competition knows how to counter anything remotely like the lower/middle weights do.  His competition is comparatively weak.

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1 hour ago, tigerfan said:

 

Even if Gable did all of that, it still wouldn't be as impressive as Cael because none of Gable's competition knows how to counter anything remotely like the lower/middle weights do.  His competition is comparatively weak.

This is the statement that I was replying to BTFB.

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Once again unless you have wrestled heavy weight you may not ever understand.  That being said.  I would argue that there is a lot of wrestling technique that light weights will not know unless they wrestle Heavy.

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Allow me to rephrase.  What heavies do is worthy of respect in their own right.  Wrestling heavyweight requires a much different skill set and different techniques than those required by the first 9 weights.  "Traditional" wrestling moves and techniques are far more necessary at every other weight class.  I don't' mean to belittle heavies, I'm just saying it is quite a different kettle of fish, barely even the same sport as 133 lbers.  I have no idea how many D1 heavies can do 20 pull ups, but I'll bet it ain't a lot, whereas I don't think there are many 141 lbers who CAN"T do at least 20 pull ups.  The strength argument holds zero weight with me.  If you could blow up NaTo to 250 lbs with the commensurate levels of strength, quickness, agility, flexibility, coordination and wrestling skill, he'd completely humiliate almost every D1 heavy ever, with the possible exception of Snyder.

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How many 133lbers could beat 165 or 174lbers?  That’s what Gable does (Snyder did) many matches.   Oh, and that dude wrestles like a light weight in my opinion.  His ankle pick reminds me of Cael’s too.   

Edited by tommygun

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On 1/30/2019 at 6:39 PM, CoachWrestling said:

Convince me I’m wrong

I hope you're right! But just off hand (help me out) I can't think of any hvwt. named  OW in the history of the NCAA. Not even Chris Taylor and he pinned his way to his 2nd title. I don't think coaches will ever vote for a hvt. They have a mental "block" that says "No way, anybody but the Big Guy." Regardless of all the logical reasoning on here, coaches just can't make the leap to an OW heavy. They associate OW with a fantastic ability of some sort. It's a form of discrimination, but that's the reality; sort of like not hiring a woman to "do a man's job" or a short person to be a cop, even though they'd be a harder target.

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1 hour ago, tigerfan said:

If you could blow up NaTo to 250 lbs with the commensurate levels of strength, quickness, agility, flexibility, coordination and wrestling skill, he'd completely humiliate almost every D1 heavy ever, with the possible exception of Snyder.

tomasello-1200x800_c.jpg

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17 minutes ago, Cooch1 said:

I hope you're right! But just off hand (help me out) I can't think of any hvwt. named  OW in the history of the NCAA. Not even Chris Taylor and he pinned his way to his 2nd title. I don't think coaches will ever vote for a hvt. They have a mental "block" that says "No way, anybody but the Big Guy." Regardless of all the logical reasoning on here, coaches just can't make the leap to an OW heavy. They associate OW with a fantastic ability of some sort. It's a form of discrimination, but that's the reality; sort of like not hiring a woman to "do a man's job" or a short person to be a cop, even though they'd be a harder target.

Don't you think it's possible that D1 coaches know a little more about wrestling than the average dude? They know what I've been saying to be true, that heavies just aren't as good wrestlers as the other weights.  Perhaps it is you that has the mental block?

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23 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

Don't you think it's possible that D1 coaches know a little more about wrestling than the average dude? They know what I've been saying to be true, that heavies just aren't as good wrestlers as the other weights.  Perhaps it is you that has the mental block?

Most  athletic heavy guys play football as their primary sport. They don't devote their full year to wrestling like most of your good lighter guys do.  The pool of talented wrestlers at heavy is much less than at 133. This has always been obvious to anyone who follows wrestling.  

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54 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

Don't you think it's possible that D1 coaches know a little more about wrestling than the average dude? They know what I've been saying to be true, that heavies just aren't as good wrestlers as the other weights.  Perhaps it is you that has the mental block?

I agree. I was only making a statistical point. I did say " ..they (coaches) associate OW with a fantastic ability of some sort" meaning heavys don't use flashy or tricky moves; versatility is associated more with "lighter" guys. So yea, heavywts. aren't as "good" as the other weights.

Thanks Gimp. I knew there was someone else. Must have been a mental block.

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I’ve seen a few highly-accomplished heavyweights conduct clinics for wrestlers of all sizes and do quite well. 

Mocco is an excellent clinician and it’s obvious that he knows a huge amount of technique not typically seen in heavyweight bouts. 

He teaches it effectively, too. 

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11 hours ago, bp2xbw said:

Most  athletic heavy guys play football as their primary sport. They don't devote their full year to wrestling like most of your good lighter guys do.  The pool of talented wrestlers at heavy is much less than at 133. This has always been obvious to anyone who follows wrestling.  

I’d say that’s right.

Most people’s natural weight falls somewhere in the middle of normal weight ranges. That being so, there are fewer heavyweights (and lightweights) to begin with.  

But for those who happen to fall at the heavy end of the normal weight distribution, other sports seem to draw their attention. Football and basketball come to mind. 

As a result, the heavyweight class simply does not draw from the same pool of competitors as some of the other weight classes.

As for technique, heavyweights simply cannot wrestle like lightweights. Their weight plus their opponent’s weight makes it impossible. It’s a bit of a different ballgame. 

Edited by Katie

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13 hours ago, tigerfan said:

If you could blow up NaTo to 250 lbs with the commensurate levels of strength, quickness, agility, flexibility, coordination and wrestling skill, he'd completely humiliate almost every D1 heavy ever, with the possible exception of Snyder.

You're living in a fantasy land.  

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If you'd have blown me up 140 pounds I could have destroyed every heavyweight that's ever lived. Oh and if I had a better training ethic. And had more skill and athleticism. That's if I had wrestled all the other great heavyweights that ever lived of course. Oh and I was cured of the flu that plauged my entire career. There's that. But otherwise, I'm the best fantasy heavyweight that's ever lived. Don't know if I could have beaten fantasy NATO though - some things are just not meant to be. (Actually I just threw that in to appear humble. He'd have been toast.)

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

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No, he's at heavyweight, for beginners, where the very best wrestlers aren't.  Sorry, but comparing a young,  very good heavyweight who is full of himself with the very best wrestlers is very demeaning to them. 

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On 1/31/2019 at 12:16 AM, TheOhioState said:

Lucky for those studs.

Yeah, probably.  But he "avoided" (and I use quotation marks here because I don't think he was purposely avoiding anyone and probably still wins all 4 titles) guys like Mitch Clark, Mark Munoz, and Lee Fullhart (who gave him a ton of trouble in Freestyle and even beat him a couple of times) based on weight and timing.

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