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WI State Champ out of states for 2 unsportsmanlikes

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27 minutes ago, Zebra said:

I went on to a Wisconsin forum and while this is all hearsay, the ref and opposing wrestler have indicated the penalized wrestler directed a particular 4-letter word at the ref. It has also been said that the kid was "Flexing" at his dad, but according to some posts his dad can be seen in the video on the other side of the gym. The exact opposite side from which he was facing.  

Someone also posted WI has a rule that two UC penalties in a single even result in an automatic suspension from the next event. 

Ref 100% correct call.  Good job!

However, there is a legal GoFundMe site set up in case all the snowflakes on here would like to contribute to a losing cause.

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I don't think the call at the end really matters.  Good call or bad call WI high school sports do not allow students to question calls at all and it is a penalty.  The flex, regardless of my opinion was called and the ref has the ability to decide unsportsmanlike conduct.  The WIAA does not allow appeals as a sign of support for the officials doing the best they can, and because that would be a full time job for someone to look at all the appeals that would come to them.  They will make exceptions in very rare cases and I am sure they are investigating this but will not say that.  If you think they are afraid of a lawsuit, you are silly.  They have this happen on a regular basis.  (Fans upset because of a bad call, parents mad, people thinking the refs are biased....) 

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Also, the ref is awesome, is AD at one of the more prestigious private schools in the area.  I remember when he started out, was good then and very good now. When a kid gets a break for an earlier body slam, then uses profanity directed toward a ref, then taunts the crowd, no where near where  his father (who was reprimanded by another official seated matside)is seated.  

Hopefully he learned some life lessons from this incident as it seems apparent he has little learned little since leaving Burlington HS.

41 minutes ago, Zebra said:

I went on to a Wisconsin forum and while this is all hearsay, the ref and opposing wrestler have indicated the penalized wrestler directed a particular 4-letter word at the ref. It has also been said that the kid was "Flexing" at his dad, but according to some posts his dad can be seen in the video on the other side of the gym. The exact opposite side from which he was facing.  

Someone also posted WI has a rule that two UC penalties in a single even result in an automatic suspension from the next event. 

Ref 100% correct call.  Good job!

However, there is a legal GoFundMe site set up in case all the snowflakes on here would like to contribute to a losing cause.

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People keep bringing up this kids' history, past penalties, parents behavior, etc. - it suggests the ref may have been motivated by more than just the flex when making the 2nd unsportsmanlike call.

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26 minutes ago, tbert said:

Ref 100% correct call.  Good job!

However, there is a legal GoFundMe site set up in case all the snowflakes on here would like to contribute to a losing cause.

Is the ref a snowflake too for overreacting to a one-second flex? I don't think anyone's a snowflake - just people standing up for themselves.

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1 hour ago, tbert said:

Kid has a history of these type antics.  He said what the **** to the ref, at the same time his dad yelled at the ref.."what the hell was that" .......then after the ref raised his hand , he let out a roar and flexed to the fans of the school that he was asked to leave from last year.  

The ref was 100% correct by the rules

Parents are the 100% of the issue.

 

Not going to make a judgement call here, but you are right about the parents - you can see the ref sitting down scold the parent and threaten to kick him out after his outburst.  I have a feeling familiarity and history with the wrestler and his parents attitudes in the past absolutely played a role here.   Again, not making a judgement call but there's probably more background than the end of this one match. 

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13 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

People keep bringing up this kids' history, past penalties, parents behavior, etc. - it suggests the ref may have been motivated by more than just the flex when making the 2nd unsportsmanlike call.

That is not something which can be said from the available information. All prior behavior, including previous penalties, indicates is he had knowledge of the rules. Assuming the WI forum is correct, you cannot swear at a ref and taunt an opposing team. 

As a zebra I do not know of any incidents where past behavior affected how a call was made in a match beyond something like a particular wrestler with a propensity for locking hands or using a particular illegal move (i.e. bow-back) I would watch for it but that was match specific. 

I have never met a ref who would call a UC or Flagrant Misconduct because of part behavior. 

 

Edited by Zebra

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3 minutes ago, Gantry said:

Not going to make a judgement call here, but you are right about the parents - you can see the ref sitting down scold the parent and threaten to kick him out after his outburst.  I have a feeling familiarity and history with the wrestler and his parents attitudes in the past absolutely played a role here.   Again, not making a judgement call but there's probably more background than the end of this one match. 

If the Wi forum is correct the dad is not the one being warned by the ref. The dad is supposedly on the opposite side of the gym. I do not know these people nor what they look like but the WI forum posters seemed to know them and were fairly certain the kid was flexing at the fans of the opposing school. 

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7 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Is the ref a snowflake too for overreacting to a one-second flex? I don't think anyone's a snowflake - just people standing up for themselves.

No, but obviously you may be standing up for bad behavior.

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Judgment call on the ref's part.  What I find disconcerting is the amount of people who don't like holding kids/adults accountable for their actions.  Feel bad for the kid all you want for losing out on an opportunity given he is clearly a great wrestling talent, but don't use those feelings to cloud the need to hold him accountable for his actions.  Best case scenario is the kid learns from this, the parents learn from this (doubt it as they are probably the root cause of the kids behavior problems), and he becomes a better behaved young man.  Kudo's to the ref for making a judgment call and holding the kid accountable for his actions.

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There's a lot of extraneous info. clouding people's opinions. In my eyes, it's simple - is flexing at the crowd an USC penalty or not?

It shouldn't matter whether he's flexing at his own school or other school's fans or parents, whether he's had bad behavior in the past, etc. If it's USC, then call it consistently, not just because you don't like a kid or are still trying to punish him for his prior USC.

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22 minutes ago, Zebra said:

If the Wi forum is correct the dad is not the one being warned by the ref. The dad is supposedly on the opposite side of the gym. I do not know these people nor what they look like but the WI forum posters seemed to know them and were fairly certain the kid was flexing at the fans of the opposing school. 

I was in the stands to the side and  behind the mom and dad.  The dad was absolutely the one being warned, and it was not his first outburst in that match. 

Not really getting into it, but there is more history in this than meets the eye.  

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6 minutes ago, tbert said:

I was in the stands to the side and  behind the mom and dad.  The dad was absolutely the one being warned, and it was not his first outburst in that match. 

Not really getting into it, but there is more history in this than meets the eye.  

Well then we have conformation the WI forum info was at least in part incorrect. Thank you for the update. 

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16 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

There's a lot of extraneous info. clouding people's opinions. In my eyes, it's simple - is flexing at the crowd an USC penalty or not?

It shouldn't matter whether he's flexing at his own school or other school's fans or parents, whether he's had bad behavior in the past, etc. If it's USC, then call it consistently, not just because you don't like a kid or are still trying to punish him for his prior USC.

Again "Flexing" is not the penalty it is UC for taunting. There are a lot of ways to taunt an opponent, opposing team, crowd, etc. 

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2 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Again "Flexing" is not the penalty it is UC for taunting. There are a lot of ways to taunt an opponent, opposing team, crowd, etc. 

I get that, but his physical act was the flex. To make the leap to taunting, the ref. needs to make some assumptions about the intent behind the flex. For example, if someone's mouthing off to an opponent or gesturing at the opponent, then it's reasonable to assume bad intent and taunting. If they're flexing at the crowd after a championship match, however, my assumption would be that it's just out of excitement unless there's clear evidence of bad intent (e.g. middle finger or something along those lines).

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16 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

I get that, but his physical act was the flex. To make the leap to taunting, the ref. needs to make some assumptions about the intent behind the flex. For example, if someone's mouthing off to an opponent or gesturing at the opponent, then it's reasonable to assume bad intent and taunting. If they're flexing at the crowd after a championship match, however, my assumption would be that it's just out of excitement unless there's clear evidence of bad intent (e.g. middle finger or something along those lines).

The ref was right there and did not even hesitate to make either UC call. It's one thing to get hit with one UC but two in rapid succession is really strange and I can only surmise the ref knew exactly what he was doing. 

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1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

Flipping off, throat slashing or a shove it gesture will almost always result in UC.  Flexing while spinning around to run off the mat is beyond the pale.

Possibly true in some cases but apparently not in this one. 

Again the ref was right there and did not even hesitate in making this call. You cannot isolate "Flexing" from the totality of the circumstances and say with certainty this should not be UC.  

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24 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Again "Flexing" is not the penalty it is UC for taunting. There are a lot of ways to taunt an opponent, opposing team, crowd, etc. 

If it is not directed at the opponent, which it doesn't seem to be, then how is it taunting? It just seems like the ref got a little penalty happy. I for one don't want the refs become the morality police and decide which celebration is OK based on their own opinion. It better be blatant before you start throwing out UC like that. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Zebra said:

It's one thing to get hit with one UC but two in rapid succession is really strange and I can only surmise the ref knew exactly what he was doing. 

It is strange. Whats more relevant in this discussion? The irregularity of a call like that or your blind allegiance to what the ref decides? I would say the former. 

Looks like the guy had it in his mind that this kid is a punk and he is going to teach him a lesson right here. I would be shocked if I hadn't seen things like this before. Refs fall in love with their infallible opinion on the mat. 

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41 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Well then we have conformation the WI forum info was at least in part incorrect. Thank you for the update. 

Yes, I read the forum, and I seen the comment about that.  The dad was not far from the camera view, just down to right.  I guess there could be debate on whether flexing toward a team that you wrestled for last year is taunting,  but  He absolutely was NOT flexing to his dad and him saying that would be a lie (after all he is 15).

Edited by tbert
Spelling

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

If it is not directed at the opponent, which it doesn't seem to be, then how is it taunting? It just seems like the ref got a little penalty happy. I for one don't want the refs become the morality police and decide which celebration is OK based on their own opinion. It better be blatant before you start throwing out UC like that. 

 

 

It is strange. Whats more relevant in this discussion? The irregularity of a call like that or your blind allegiance to what the ref decides? I would say the former. 

Looks like the guy had it in his mind that this kid is a punk and he is going to teach him a lesson right here. I would be shocked if I hadn't seen things like this before. Refs fall in love with their infallible opinion on the mat. 

You are not allowed to taunt the crowd, ref, table workers, coaches, some other guy's girlfriend, etc. Taunting is not person specific. 

The rest of this post is all ad homonym stuff about refs from someone who probably never even considered getting stripes. Refs are just people who in most cases are doing the best they can given the circumstances. It really is a thankless job. 

Just like I say to anybody who does not know how hard it can be, go get your stripes and tell me again in 15 years what it's like. 

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I'm not a fan of seeing a kid lose his opportunity to wrestle for a state title, if he deserved to lose it or not. My guess is if he doesn't question the officials escape point, doesn't say anything to the official and waits to celebrate until he leaves the mat, then he would be wrestling at the next tournament.

Edited by unbiased

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1 minute ago, unbiased said:

I'm not a fan of seeing a kid lose his opportunity to wrestle for a state title, if he deserved to lose it or not. My guess is if he doesn't question the officials escape point, doesn't say anything to the official and waits to celebrate after he leaves the mat, then he would be wrestling at the next tournament.

All correct. If he says and does nothing he doesn't have 10+ pages on a local form and encroaching 4 pages on this one. 

 

Oh, and he'd still be wrestling for another state title. 

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