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WI State Champ out of states for 2 unsportsmanlikes

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15 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The rest of this post is all ad homonym stuff about refs from someone who probably never even considered getting stripes. Refs are just people who in most cases are doing the best they can given the circumstances. It really is a thankless job. 

Just like I say to anybody who does not know how hard it can be, go get your stripes and tell me again in 15 years what it's like. 

Can confirm. I volunteer officiated a local youth tournament when not enough refs showed, and 30-40% of my matches had parents complaining about literally anything. One dad/coach complained that a take down in Sudden Victory ended the match. 

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35 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The ref was right there and did not even hesitate to make either UC call. It's one thing to get hit with one UC but two in rapid succession is really strange and I can only surmise the ref knew exactly what he was doing. 

The ref didnt hesitate to make the call. He knew exactly what he was doing. That could easily mean the ref was looking for a reason. I've seen some power hungry refs, moreso at the middle school level, but every so often at the high school level. It happens, so I dont see why you would just assume the ref is correct and the kid deserves to lose his chance at the state series. The flex either should not have been called, or every state champ pretty much ever should be hit with it. Refs are people too, they can get some bias, human error is a thing.

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8 minutes ago, Zebra said:

You are not allowed to taunt the crowd, ref, table workers, coaches, some other guy's girlfriend, etc. Taunting is not person specific. 

The rest of this post is all ad homonym stuff about refs from someone who probably never even considered getting stripes. Refs are just people who in most cases are doing the best they can given the circumstances. It really is a thankless job. 

Just like I say to anybody who does not know how hard it can be, go get your stripes and tell me again in 15 years what it's like. 

But define taunting? You can't. Its a vague idea. It is up to the refs judgement. To which I say, it better be blatant if you are going to take those steps and ruin an athletes year or career even. I mean athletes are just people, kids even, so it better be a big deal if you are going to make an example out of them. 

I am not a ref and realized long ago I don't have the attention span for it. It is definitely an admirable thing to take up, but you seem to think that because it is a thankless job they should be free from criticism. I disagree. If you haven't seen a power tripping ref then you aren't paying attention. 

I could take 15 years and ref. I would hope in that time I wouldn't become so cynical about the athletes that I am totally cool with ending a kids season because of some loose definition of taunting. If I did, then I most certainly would quit, because that is not a refs job at all! 

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Everything else aside, using the argument "we did it before and got away with it" or "several of our other guys got away with it" is beyond dumb dumb as a defense.  Makes you look ten times worse.

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

But define taunting? You can't. Its a vague idea. It is up to the refs judgement. To which I say, it better be blatant if you are going to take those steps and ruin an athletes year or career even. I mean athletes are just people, kids even, so it better be a big deal if you are going to make an example out of them. 

 

And if a longtime poster on this board, who was at the event, is right in saying that he intentionally flexed in the direction of an opposing team that he wrestled for last year, wouldn't you consider that blatant taunting? 

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6 minutes ago, Molsen said:

The ref didnt hesitate to make the call. He knew exactly what he was doing. That could easily mean the ref was looking for a reason.

Or that the kid totally deserved both UC penalties. 

 

I've seen some power hungry refs, moreso at the middle school level, but every so often at the high school level. It happens, so I dont see why you would just assume the ref is correct and the kid deserves to lose his chance at the state series. 

Rarely are refs "power hungry" And I mean very rarely. Those type of people end up getting run out of the sport eventually.  I am not just "assuming" the ref is correct, I have 15 years of reffing behind me to recognize when things are not what they may appear. Refs do not make multiple snap UC calls without reason; they just don't  

 

The flex either should not have been called, or every state champ pretty much ever should be hit with it. Refs are people too, they can get some bias, human error is a thing.

Again we do not know all the specifics beyond 1 video angle with limited audio. You are making assumptions that are not born out in the available information. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Gantry said:

And if a longtime poster on this board, who was at the event, is right in saying that he intentionally flexed in the direction of an opposing team that he wrestled for last year, wouldn't you consider that blatant taunting? 

Sure. I bet a lot of feelings were hurt. I am still trying to figure out why we should be totally cool with keeping a kid out of the State tournament because a ref had enough. It is up to the ref to use his judgement. In that 10 second clip I saw he decided that was enough to keep him out of State? Thats hard to swallow no matter what the stated rules are. 

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10 minutes ago, russelscout said:

But define taunting? You can't. Its a vague idea. It is up to the refs judgement. To which I say, it better be blatant if you are going to take those steps and ruin an athletes year or career even. I mean athletes are just people, kids even, so it better be a big deal if you are going to make an example out of them. 

While it may be esoteric but like the courts said about pornography "I can't define it but I know it when I see it." It is situational and an act in one situation can be completely innocent and the exact same act in a different situation can absolutely be taunting. Circumstances change the definition.  

 

10 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I am not a ref 

Yes that was obvious. Not a knock specifically but still obvious. 

 

10 minutes ago, russelscout said:


I could take 15 years and ref. I would hope in that time I wouldn't become so cynical about the athletes that I am totally cool with ending a kids season because of some loose definition of taunting. If I did, then I most certainly would quit, because that is not a refs job at all! 

Refs are there to enforce the rules and impartially judge an athletic completion. It is up to the athlete as to whether he loses his port season from repeated rules violations. The ref did not decide to take away the kid's post season, the athlete did.  

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2 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Sure. I bet a lot of feelings were hurt. I am still trying to figure out why we should be totally cool with keeping a kid out of the State tournament because a ref had enough. It is up to the ref to use his judgement. In that 10 second clip I saw he decided that was enough to keep him out of State? Thats hard to swallow no matter what the stated rules are. 

The ref enforced the rules after the wrestler broke them. He did not decide to keep the kid out of the post season. These rules are in place for a reason and the ref enforced them. 

If the kid does nothing he has no issues. I just do not understand why this is fact is begin overlooked or minimized.

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14 minutes ago, Zebra said:

 

Have you considered that your position as a ref may make you biased in the ref's favor? I see this all the time across all professions. People don't like when their "group" is criticized. Police officers are a notable example. Any criticism of specific missteps by officers are often taken as critiques of the profession as a whole. I think there's a reason that most on here, and in the wrestling community more broadly based on twitter, take the kid's side here. He shouldn't have talked to the ref, but the second call is ridiculous unless you want to ban celebrations altogether. And for the record, the kid seems like he may not be the perfect sportsman (trying to be diplomatic with that wording because I don't like bashing kids) based on the info that has come out. It still doesn't change the fact that it's wrong for his season to be over. Huge overreaction by the official and just lack of judgment in general.

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19 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Yes that was obvious. Not a knock specifically but still obvious. 

Man, I have been around wrestling for just as long or longer than you. Im not a part of your fraternity, but I have seen enough matches to know the role refs play. Really we should be taking your opinion with a grain of salt because your bias is very clear. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Refs are there to enforce the rules and impartially judge an athletic completion. It is up to the athlete as to whether he loses his port season from repeated rules violations. The ref did not decide to take away the kid's post season, the athlete did

It is not that simple. You are excusing any responsibility on the refs part. What if the kid simply looked over to that side of the bleachers? Would that be taunting? What if he simply held up 1 finger while doing it? Is that taunting? There is a point that a ref needs to decide it is out of line. I hardly think a 1 second flex is enough to justify staying home from State, and I think 95% of refs would agree. This ref CHOSE to make that call immediately after hitting him with an UC seconds before. 

Edited by russelscout

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Just now, qc8223 said:

Have you considered that your position as a ref may make you biased in the ref's favor? I see this all the time across all professions. People don't like when their "group" is criticized. Police officers are a notable example. Any criticism of specific missteps by officers are often taken as critiques of the profession as a whole. I think there's a reason that most on here, and in the wrestling community more broadly based on twitter, take the kid's side here. He shouldn't have talked to the ref, but the second call is ridiculous unless you want to ban celebrations altogether. And for the record, the kid seems like he may not be the perfect sportsman (trying to be diplomatic with that wording because I don't like bashing kids) based on the info that has come out. It still doesn't change the fact that it's wrong for his season to be over. Huge overreaction by the official and just lack of judgment in general.

Former ref to be exact. I stopped when mi kid hit high school. 

I am not biased but I do know exactly what it is like to be out there and have had to make those calls. Many who have never even deigned to do so make assumptions with minimal facts. 

Again the ref did not decide to end this kid's season, he did by acting that way. The ref is there to enforce the rules nothing more. Don't violate the rules and you will not have an issue. Not only that it is a state issue regarding the suspension. The ref has nothing to do with that and should never consider those factors when making an impartial decision.  

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1 minute ago, Zebra said:

Former ref to be exact. I stopped when mi kid hit high school. 

I am not biased but I do know exactly what it is like to be out there and have had to make those calls. Many who have never even deigned to do so make assumptions with minimal facts. 

Again the ref did not decide to end this kid's season, he did by acting that way. The ref is there to enforce the rules nothing more. Don't violate the rules and you will not have an issue. Not only that it is a state issue regarding the suspension. The ref has nothing to do with that and should never consider those factors when making an impartial decision.  

Nobody can just say "I'm not biased." That's not how bias works. You rarely know when you are. You don't have to completely absolve the kid of responsibility to also believe that the ref should have had more restraint AND that the rules of the state are stupid. Nothing in the world improves if you don't point out what you believe is wrong. 

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Man, I have been around wrestling for just as long or longer than you. Im not a part of your fraternity, but I have seen enough matches to know the role refs play. Really we should be taking your opinion with a grain of salt because your bias is very clear. 

 

My bias is to the rules, nothing more nothing less. There is nothing beyond the opinion of people on message boards the ref is wrong. I can tell you from experience refs do not do this lightly. 

 

1 minute ago, russelscout said:

 

It is not that simple. You are excusing any responsibility on the refs part. What if the kid simply looked over to that side of the bleachers? Would that be taunting? What if he simply held up 1 finger while doing it? Is that taunting? There is a point that a ref needs to decide it is out of line. I hardly think a 1 second flex is enough to justify staying home from State, and I think 95% of refs would agree. This ref CHOSE to make that call immediately after hitting him with an UC seconds before. 

The ref has no responsibility in deciding a suspension, they are there to enforce the rules. It's simple, do not break the rules. I cannot understand why it is that hard. 

 

And I assure 95% of refs would not agree with your position. They may not have all made that second UC call but they are not going to second guess ref based upon the scant evidence we have. 

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1 minute ago, qc8223 said:

Nobody can just say "I'm not biased." That's not how bias works. You rarely know when you are. You don't have to completely absolve the kid of responsibility to also believe that the ref should have had more restraint AND that the rules of the state are stupid. Nothing in the world improves if you don't point out what you believe is wrong. 

In the context of this conversation I am not biased, at least not because I used to be a ref. I am biased in favor of the rules with a lot of experience in their application. Based upon what we know from a single angel video with limited audio there is no evidence to indicate the ref was wrong. You may not like that a situation like this can arise and I think and appeal should be allowed by the state but the ref is there to enforce the rules, nothing more.  

My experience (no bias) tells me the ref knows more than us and he made the calls which were warranted at the time given the circumstances.  

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1 minute ago, Zebra said:

And I assure 95% of refs would not agree with your position. They may not have all made that second UC call but they are not going to second guess ref based upon the scant evidence we have. 

Maybe not after the fact. You have clearly shown, you never second guess your brethren no matter what.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The ref has no responsibility in deciding a suspension, they are there to enforce the rules. It's simple, do not break the rules. I cannot understand why it is that hard.

I cannot understand why its hard for you to see this is clearly a ticky tack call at best.
 

3 minutes ago, Zebra said:

My bias is to the rules, nothing more nothing less. There is nothing beyond the opinion of people on message boards the ref is wrong. I can tell you from experience refs do not do this lightly. 

Your bias is to the infallibility of the refs call. 

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1 minute ago, Zebra said:

In the context of this conversation I am not biased, at least not because I used to be a ref. I am biased in favor of the rules with a lot of experience in their application. Based upon what we know from a single angel video with limited audio there is no evidence to indicate the ref was wrong. You may not like that a situation like this can arise and I think and appeal should be allowed by the state but the ref is there to enforce the rules, nothing more.  

What you are calling a rule is purely subjective. There is nothing clear about the definition. The degree to which an athlete steps out of line is always in consideration. This just wasn't a big deal, and the ref made it out to be.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Zebra said:

My experience (no bias) tells me the ref knows more than us and he made the calls which were warranted at the time given the circumstances. 

So you don't think there have ever been bad calls or refs crossing the line because they know more? Please. 

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2 minutes ago, Joe Williamson said:

So who draws the line on what flex is legal and what flex is illegal?  

This is the whole crux of the situation.  Most of us saw the video and said the flex was not taunting and therefore legal.  The ref saw differently.  Zebra is saying there may be other factors that we don't know about that lends context to the flex, leading the ref to consider it taunting.

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2 minutes ago, jchapman said:

This is the whole crux of the situation.  Most of us saw the video and said the flex was not taunting and therefore legal.  The ref saw differently.  Zebra is saying there may be other factors that we don't know about that lends context to the flex, leading the ref to consider it taunting.

Early this season, a varsity match I was coaching went to Sudden Victory. The opposing wrestler made a hand gesture to the crowd. Later, I asked another coach about it,  and it turned out the opposing wrestler was making an "O" for "overtime," and the referee did not penalize the gesture. To me, it looked a lot like a obscene gesture one could make to state their opponent isn't very tough. A gesture  that looks a lot like the optional start symbol. 

The ref had seen this gesture from this team before, and deemed it not taunting. If I had seen that gesture with no context, I would have assumed it was an obscene gesture. 

For right or for wrong, there is obviously more than meets the eye to this situation. The fact that this official deemed this flex a taunt suggests that there is something else going on besides just the flex.

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33 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Maybe not after the fact. You have clearly shown, you never second guess your brethren no matter what.
 

Not true but we do not have any evidence the ref was wrong. Give me some which is not subjective and I will gladly say he's wrong. You were not there are are clearly biased against a ref making this type of decision. 

 

33 minutes ago, russelscout said:

 

I cannot understand why its hard for you to see this is clearly a ticky tack call at best.
 

Your bias is to the infallibility of the refs call. 

Again not correct. You are assuming it is "ticky-tack" but again you do not have the entire context. 

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30 minutes ago, russelscout said:

What you are calling a rule is purely subjective. There is nothing clear about the definition. The degree to which an athlete steps out of line is always in consideration. This just wasn't a big deal, and the ref made it out to be.

You assume it was not a big deal, but you do not know the full context. Again you are showing your bias.  

 

30 minutes ago, russelscout said:

So you don't think there have ever been bad calls or refs crossing the line because they know more? Please. 

When did I ever say anything of the kind? You will never see me say a ref is infallible.

One thing I can say is they always know more than any guy who sits in the stands.  

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24 minutes ago, jchapman said:

This is the whole crux of the situation.  Most of us saw the video and said the flex was not taunting and therefore legal.  The ref saw differently.  Zebra is saying there may be other factors that we don't know about that lends context to the flex, leading the ref to consider it taunting.

That is exactly correct.

UC calls are not common. You can go most of a season with no situations warranting one. To have two snap UC calls in a row is extremely rare. Not unheard of but in 15 years I have only seen a handful. Every time it started with a few certain words being directed at a ref and then some form of continued action by the wrestler.   

I never had to make two in a row myself but I have had a few flagrant misconduct violations. You do not making them lightly as they have ramifications.

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