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WI State Champ out of states for 2 unsportsmanlikes

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6 hours ago, russelscout said:

If there is so much more to this story, and the ref knows something about this kid that we don't know, is he still acting as an impartial agent? 

I don't see a problem with the ref knowing the kid's history.  I'm sure most local refs know a lot of their area's top wrestlers.

While not 100% confirmed, the consensus seems to be that he was flexing at his former team who his current team was competing with for the team title at this tournament.  I believe the mom admitted that it was his father that the ref in the chair was scolding and whoever he was flexing at, it certainly didn't look like it was to his dad which is what he was claiming. 

If true, that's definitely taunting.   Maybe a ref who doesn't know the kid doesn't realize it's taunting, but it doesn't change the fact that he was taunting.    Heck if the kid knew the ref and had reason to believe he was biased, then that's even more reason to not do something that could be perceived as taunting.

I don't have a problem with the calls the official made.   If anything, the problem is that there is no exception to the 1 match suspension penalty when the postseason is involved.   

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3 hours ago, jackwebster said:

If it is a "thankless job,"* then why do it? Serious question: what is the appeal of putting on the stripes?  

My mom and dad have been ref'ing all sorts of sports for decades. I ref'ed for a few years in the early 00's and coached for 15. So, I've had the opportunity to hang out with a lot of your kind and have come to my own conclusions. But, I want to know what you think.

*Obviously, there is the renumeration; isn't this a thank-you?

I wouldn't mind reffing some local HS tournaments. I don't think wrestling for a long time, especially a long time ago, constitutes great credentials for the job though :D

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7 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

I wouldn't mind reffing some local HS tournaments. I don't think wrestling for a long time, especially a long time ago, constitutes great credentials for the job though :D

Jr High is the most fun. At least I  found it so. 

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13 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Our jr. high refs. have the coaches trained. If they even stand up out of their chair, it's a penalty.

Half the Jr High tournaments I've worked don't even have chairs. 

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5 hours ago, Zebra said:

Jr High is the most fun. At least I  found it so. 

You posted this on page 1:

 

"As for the escape, speaking as a zebra, wrestlers do not need to be separated for there to be a "loss of control". When a reversal is "in progress" there will be a point where there is a loss of control but we allow the situation to continue so as to not award an escape then TD for 3 points as opposed to the 2 for a reversal. If time runs out, as in this case, and there was a loss of control we are to award the escape. That is what appears to have happened here. Keep in mind we cannot see the other side in this video and the ref is right there so I will give the benefit of the doubt to the ref. "

Do me a solid and quote the rule book, verbatim, that describes this "loss of control" as a scoring maneuver in folkstyle wrestling. 

 

I'm interested in reading it because later in the thread you were talking about how the official has no choice but to enforce the rules, how he doesn't make the rules, etc but you appear to have invented one here and everyone else just kinda went along with it. 

 

Edited by mikedyee

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Escape point- Very similar to casebook interpretation in rule 5.10 situation D. Substitute "time expires" for "going out of bounds." Same idea.  I'm not sure I would have awarded points in that particular position, but giving 1 for loss of control at the end of a period is generally acceptable.

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23 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Same idea.  

It's not the same idea. 

 

For an escape to be awarded the defensive wrestler has to "become defensible."

 

A point for "loss of control" is a made up thing and I hear about it almost as much as I hear about the "free move" that the defensive wrestler gets after a locking hands call. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, TobusRex said:

I wouldn't mind reffing some local HS tournaments. I don't think wrestling for a long time, especially a long time ago, constitutes great credentials for the job though :D

"I don't think wrestling for a long time, especially a long time ago, consitutes great credentials."   - This is an excellent quote and 100% true.  Just because you have been doing something for years doesnt mean you have been doing it right for years.

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51 minutes ago, mikedyee said:

It's not the same idea. 

 

For an escape to be awarded the defensive wrestler has to "become defensible."

 

A point for "loss of control" is a made up thing and I hear about it almost as much as I hear about the "free move" that the defensive wrestler gets after a locking hands call. 

 

 

 

5.10 Situation D: Wrestler B attempts to reverse wrestler A with a switch, however, just before Wrestler B comes on top for a reversal, both wrestlers go out of bounds.  It was imminent that Wrestler A would have been reversed and that Wrestler A LOST CONTROL of Wrestler B.  Should a reversal, escape, or nothing be awarded? 

Ruling: Because CONTROL was LOST and no reversal occurred before going out of bounds, the referee should award an escape to Wrestler B.

 

In the face! (taunt)

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17 hours ago, mikedyee said:

Please quote directly from a rule book that describes this "loss of control" being a scoring maneuver in folkstyle wrestling. 

 

It's not in any rule book or any case book that I have ever read and I would like to see the actual terminology, you know, since we are all about the rules and calling it right and all that.. 

LOL

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49 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

 

5.10 Situation D: Wrestler B attempts to reverse wrestler A with a switch, however, just before Wrestler B comes on top for a reversal, both wrestlers go out of bounds.  It was imminent that Wrestler A would have been reversed and that Wrestler A LOST CONTROL of Wrestler B.  Should a reversal, escape, or nothing be awarded? 

Ruling: Because CONTROL was LOST and no reversal occurred before going out of bounds, the referee should award an escape to Wrestler B.

 

In the face! (taunt)

I see.

 

And where is the out of bounds line in relation to the wrestlers in the video? 

 

Tell me the time when they go out of bounds so I can skip forward to it. 

Edited by mikedyee

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4 minutes ago, mikedyee said:

I see.

 

And where is the out of bounds line in relation to the wrestlers in the video? 

 

Tell me the time when they go out of bounds so I can skip forward to it. 

The same thing applies when time expires. 

 

I do not have my materials any more so I cannot quote you chapter and verse. 

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4 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The same thing applies when time expires. 

 

I do not have my materials any more so I cannot quote you chapter and verse. 

I always hated this situation because the ref gives no indication to the wrestlers that there has been a loss of control and, therefore, wrestle accordingly, i.e. hold position until the period ends.

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1 minute ago, jackwebster said:

I always hated this situation because the ref gives no indication to the wrestlers that there has been a loss of control and, therefore, wrestle accordingly, i.e. hold position until the period ends.

I can understand that argument. 

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I would be fine with the loss of control point if control hadn't been reestablished (at least it looks that way to me) prior to the period ending. The complaint about it was stupid regardless but that unsportsmanlike on the flex was ridiculous. I don't care who he was looking at when he did it, there was nothing egregious, over the top or long lasting about it. Again, every state champ I have ever seen has flexed way harder after winning and i have NEVER seen it called as unsportsmanlike. It is still my opinion that this official sucke and should receive the grief from the community that he is. This is significantly worse than that nonsense hair cutting scandal from a couple months ago.

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2 minutes ago, Perry said:

I would be fine with the loss of control point if control hadn't been reestablished (at least it looks that way to me) prior to the period ending. The complaint about it was stupid regardless but that unsportsmanlike on the flex was ridiculous. I don't care who he was looking at when he did it, there was nothing egregious, over the top or long lasting about it. Again, every state champ I have ever seen has flexed way harder after winning and i have NEVER seen it called as unsportsmanlike. It is still my opinion that this official sucke and should receive the grief from the community that he is. This is significantly worse than that nonsense hair cutting scandal from a couple months ago.

Based upon what another poster said, who is from that state, a bulletin was issued to all school ADs about this subject so this may have been a point of emphasis limiting referee discretion, very similar to the hands in the face we are seeing in the NCAA. Now I have not seen that bulletin so I do not know that for a fact but it would explain the why.   

You do not like the outcome, I get that. 

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7 minutes ago, Perry said:

I would be fine with the loss of control point if control hadn't been reestablished (at least it looks that way to me) prior to the period ending. 

I don't think the ref went far enough. 

 

From the video it was obvious that the kid who "escaped" was going to score a takedown, get a 5 count, and then score a pin. 

 

Time ran out, it was inevitable though..

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What I don't get is, given that the kid got tagged for a couple of misconducts at the end of the match that likely cost him a chance to  continue on toward the possibility of being a four time champ, how you posters are debating the allocation of a meaningless point at the end of a match. You guys are "nibbling on a bone" when you have a whole carcass to chew on; the kid's reaction to the call got him in trouble with the ref and subsequently got him a DQ; that would seem to me to be the interesting point here.

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7 minutes ago, npope said:

What I don't get is, given that the kid got tagged for a couple of misconducts at the end of the match that likely cost him a chance to  continue on toward the possibility of being a four time champ, how you posters are debating the allocation of a meaningless point at the end of a match. You guys are "nibbling on a bone" when you have a whole carcass to chew on; the kid's reaction to the call got him in trouble with the ref and subsequently got him a DQ; that would seem to me to be the interesting point here.

I think we exhausted that somewhere in the first few pages. Swearing at the ref (the purported offense) is not a debatable UC so the people who are not happy with the outcome started in on the "Flexing" UC. Then switched to the whole technicality of the point thing.  

 

I happen to agree with you in principle that if the kid does't say anything about a literal "moot point" then a million lines of text on message boards across this country would have not been written.  

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