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1032004

WI State Champ out of states for 2 unsportsmanlikes

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I don't like the official, it was a crap call using poor judgement. I know the exact rule of emphasis that went into effect and had that convo with my kids earlier on this year. This was simply pathetic application using poor judgement. I get that you're an official and playing devil's advocate but he did his job exceptionally poorly that day. 

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7 minutes ago, Perry said:

In my opinion because literally almost every district and state championship in the history of the sport would have been dinged for unsportsmanlike conduct.

so, your stance is that the refs in "literally almost every district and state championship in the history of the sport" were NOT doing their jobs.  Isn't that sort of the root of the problem?  In general, kids have come to expect that poor behavior will not be penalized.

Edited by gromit

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1 minute ago, Perry said:

In my opinion because literally almost every district and state championship in the history of the sport would have been dinged for unsportsmanlike conduct.

I disagree with your assessment. This is a specific case with singularly unique circumstances. Not all situations are equal. 

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3 minutes ago, Zebra said:

In your opinion because you do not like the outcome. 

The outcome is pretty extreme for something that wasn't a big deal. A ref shouldn't just blindly make a call like that without consequences in mind. Isn't that part of the whole judgment thing? It was a stupid call and poor judgment by the ref. Yes, the wrestler made a bad decision, but the ref chose to end his season. Thats ridiculous. 

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15 minutes ago, russelscout said:

The outcome is pretty extreme for something that wasn't a big deal. A ref shouldn't just blindly make a call like that without consequences in mind. Isn't that part of the whole judgment thing? It was a stupid call and poor judgment by the ref. Yes, the wrestler made a bad decision, but the ref chose to end his season. Thats ridiculous. 

In your opinion it was not a big deal. If the state issued a bulletin on the subject then maybe it's a bigger deal than you think, or at least it is to them.  

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On 2/6/2019 at 8:06 AM, jchapman said:

The bottom wrestler nearly scored a reversal, but the top wrestler recovered to prevent it.  The ref was letting the situation play out

Make this a general point  and extend the wrestling skill situation to our nonflagrant situation. May sound wishywashy but ther's a middle ground.

I've seen flagrant. To me flagrant is throwing a punch, a head gear,finger, etc. ,safety becomes a concern . A " quick Flex" is no way flagrant. It's actually standard fare these days. A kid's brain is not even fully developed. It's overkill, like sending him home from school or flunking him for throwing a paper airplane or picking his nose. 

To me a really good/wise call to benefit everyone would be something  more win-win.

I  reminded of the  movie Schindler's List where Schindler talks the  German officer out of using his position of authority to randomly kill Jewish prisoners, but rather to view himself as having gained more esteem and power by acts of mercy. 

I know it's hard to be tolerant under the lights/ pressure of doing a thankless job. At the same time, I'd like to see more flexibility since ref power is practically absolute. I'd Iike to  see the ref stop short, pull the kid aside and chew him out like a "tough love" parent/coach in front of everyone. This is hard to do with everyone watching in an emotionally charged situation, much easier to wield penalty point authority.  

Absolute power absolute responsibility; this isn't emphasized enough in ref training for high school situations.  Either way ref's decision is final  and I'd bet a no-call would be better in the long run since  the impact on the kid is likely to have  positive effect in a learning situation rather than a beat down  w/resentment all over the place. Noone gets hurt with restraint. 

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I get that this appears to be an instance of an official dishing out an unnecessary UC.  My gut reaction is to be outraged, too.  However, as Zebra pointed out, we have a limited perspective of everything that happened and no knowledge of what else may have been said on the mat at the end of the match.  I can only imagine how people would react if an official handed out an UC  based only on what they witnessed in a video shot from the stands.

Also, the last thing in the world I want is an official making a call based on what happened the week before or what might happen a week into the future.  You make the call based on the existing circumstances and as outlined by the rules.  

Yeah, this is a controversial call, but some of these criticisms strike me as a bit unhinged.

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7 minutes ago, Zebra said:

In your opinion it was not a big deal. If the state issued a bulletin on the subject then maybe it's a bigger deal than you think, or at least it is to them.  

I haven't seen that yet. Maybe it will change my mind. Where is it at? Fact is that the match, tournament, and season is about the kids. Its not about the ref. You are in stern defense of the official, which I get. But ultimately everyone loses in a situation when one of the top kid is taken out. It better be a big deal to take those steps. I'm not seeing it, and frankly, I am having a very hard time getting behind any ref who is so comfortable getting that involved. Just saying.

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I am not standing behind anybody but I am not willing to allow emotion to cloud my assessment of the situation. This decision was made based upon the specifics of the situation nothing more. Nothing in that video indicated the ref was wrong, but as I said many times it is a single angle with limited audio. Nobody has come forth with anything other than hyperbolic nonsense to refute this specific decision while comparing it to other situations which do not have the same set of circumstances. 

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The 2018-2019 WIAA (Wisconsin Interscholastic Athletic Association) points of emphasis can be found here:

https://www.wiaawi.org/Sports/Wrestling/RulesRegulations.aspx

The only part that I can find referring to unsportsmanlike conduct or flagrant misconduct is in the "Reminders from the Past" section addressing profanity
 

  • Zero tolerance for profanity – Remember that a wrestling match is an extension of the classroom. Officials, you must discipline inappropriate language. A USC or even FMC could be warranted in many cases. Coaches should not approve of it and officials should not accept it. There is no place for it in the classroom or athletic arena.


 

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20 minutes ago, Zebra said:

I am not standing behind anybody but I am not willing to allow emotion to cloud my assessment of the situation. This decision was made based upon the specifics of the situation nothing more. Nothing in that video indicated the ref was wrong, but as I said many times it is a single angle with limited audio. Nobody has come forth with anything other than hyperbolic nonsense to refute this specific decision while comparing it to other situations which do not have the same set of circumstances. 

Would you ever even entertain the idea that the ref could have made a poor judgment call in a tense situation? Could you believe that he possibly ever made a poor decision in that moment? Surely, in your 15 years of being a ref you learned that refs make bad calls from time to time, or no?  By constantly saying things about limited angle and audio, and there likely being more to the story, it doesn't prove that nothing is indicating the ref is wrong. You are saying there is no evidence that the ref made the right call. If we had a better angle, audio, and knew the whole story, theeeeen we would know that he is right. You are making these broad assumptions, based on your experience/ bias. Once again, you are unable to look at this objectively.

Edited by russelscout

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5 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Would you ever even entertain the idea that the ref could have made a poor judgment call in a tense situation? Could you believe that he possibly ever made a poor decision in that moment? Surely, in your 15 years of being a ref you learned that refs make bad calls from time to time, or no?  By constantly saying things about limited angle and audio, and there likely being more to the story, it doesn't prove that nothing is indicating the ref is wrong. You are saying there is no evidence that the ref made the right call. If we had a better angle, audio, and knew the whole story, theeeeen we would know that he is right. You are making these broad assumptions, based on your experience/ bias. Once again, you are unable to look at this objectively.

Dude I've seen more than a few crappy refs. I've even had more than one argument in my time. I used to carry the rule book and printouts of all the rules interpretation guides. God I loved the look on their faces when I'd open my backpack and they'd see all the little sticky notes.  

 

We have nothing to go by other than this video and I see nothing to indicate the ref was wrong. I get it you don't like the call and think the ref was being overly harsh or should have considered other factors I just don't agree with that based upon what we know. All I ever said is the ref knows more about this situation then we do and I am deferring to his judgment since he was there and we were not. I seem to be one of the few people looking at this objectively as opposed to the ramped up emotionalism in this thread.  

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20 minutes ago, Rhackler said:

The 2018-2019 WIAA (Wisconsin Interscholastic Athletic Association) points of emphasis can be found here:

https://www.wiaawi.org/Sports/Wrestling/RulesRegulations.aspx

The only part that I can find referring to unsportsmanlike conduct or flagrant misconduct is in the "Reminders from the Past" section addressing profanity
 

  • Zero tolerance for profanity – Remember that a wrestling match is an extension of the classroom. Officials, you must discipline inappropriate language. A USC or even FMC could be warranted in many cases. Coaches should not approve of it and officials should not accept it. There is no place for it in the classroom or athletic arena.


 

Based upon what people from WI are saying it was a separate bulletin circulated to the ADs. I am not in WI so I have not seen the actual document nor do I know if it is on the WI website.

I trust nothing from the internet without corroboration but if the source seems credible will cautiously accept the data until something indicates otherwise. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zebra said:

Based upon what people from WI are saying it was a separate bulletin circulated to the ADs. I am not in WI so I have not seen the actual document nor do I know if it is on the WI website.

I trust nothing from the internet without corroboration but if the source seems credible will cautiously accept the data until something indicates otherwise. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Zebra said:

 

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel   2/5/19

Wade Labecki, WIAA deputy director who oversees wrestling, said the official’s decision is final and Halter will have no chance to appeal.

“In the official’s judgement, (Halter’s) actions were enough to be considered flagrant,” Labecki said. “It’s unfortunate, but we provide a reminder every year to the athletic directors of every school. Our hope is that the athletic director passes that information on to their coaches and the coaches pass it on to their players.”

 

I could probably find the actual script sent out, if I searched hard enough, but obviously its a moot point as everyone's mind is made up.  

Edited by tbert
Premature send

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6 hours ago, mikedyee said:

It's not the same idea. 

 

For an escape to be awarded the defensive wrestler has to "become defensible."

 

A point for "loss of control" is a made up thing and I hear about it almost as much as I hear about the "free move" that the defensive wrestler gets after a locking hands call. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, mikedyee said:

I see.

 

And where is the out of bounds line in relation to the wrestlers in the video? 

 

Tell me the time when they go out of bounds so I can skip forward to it. 

Mikey- I found a reference to loss of control in the casebook.  Now you want something else?

 

How about this: Mikey starts the period on top.  Alex on bottom.  After a wild scramble, Alex has Mikey in a front headlock and is spinning behind.  No points have been awarded for an escape.  Time expires.  The ref correctly gives Alex 1 point, because mikey has lost control, and is on all fours.  Alex hasn't established control, nor has he met the criteria for escape, but Mikey no longer has restraining power (nor does he know the rulebook) so Alex earns 1 point because Mikey lost control.

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14 hours ago, mikedyee said:

You posted this on page 1:

 

"As for the escape, speaking as a zebra, wrestlers do not need to be separated for there to be a "loss of control". When a reversal is "in progress" there will be a point where there is a loss of control but we allow the situation to continue so as to not award an escape then TD for 3 points as opposed to the 2 for a reversal. If time runs out, as in this case, and there was a loss of control we are to award the escape. That is what appears to have happened here. Keep in mind we cannot see the other side in this video and the ref is right there so I will give the benefit of the doubt to the ref. "

Do me a solid and quote the rule book, verbatim, that describes this "loss of control" as a scoring maneuver in folkstyle wrestling. 

 

I'm interested in reading it because later in the thread you were talking about how the official has no choice but to enforce the rules, how he doesn't make the rules, etc but you appear to have invented one here and everyone else just kinda went along with it. 

 

This is the latest version I could find, but it’s literally the definition. 

Rule 5, Section 10.

“An escape is when the defensive wrestler gains a neutral position and the opponent has lost control...”

http://www.utahwrestling.org/2014_15WrestlingRuleBook.pdf#page49

Edited by 1032004

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40 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

This is the latest version I could find, but it’s literally the definition. 

Rule 5, Section 10.

“An escape is when the defensive wrestler gains a neutral position and the opponent has lost control...”

http://www.utahwrestling.org/2014_15WrestlingRuleBook.pdf#page49

I also included another example from the casebook.Check back a couple pages.  It wasn't good enough for him.

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On 2/6/2019 at 11:22 AM, Gantry said:

Not going to make a judgement call here, but you are right about the parents - you can see the ref sitting down scold the parent and threaten to kick him out after his outburst.  I have a feeling familiarity and history with the wrestler and his parents attitudes in the past absolutely played a role here.   Again, not making a judgement call but there's probably more background than the end of this one match. 

Your assessment is pretty much spot on.   Real strange match crowd wise.. as there were three teams concerned.   Papa bear came out of stands to mat edge a couple times...  Im not sure why the one point at the end was the boiling point, maybe they thought more back points were in order rather than loss of control.. Waterford coach didnt seem concerned  too much, given it was a going to be a tight team race.   I saw the kid question the ref and papa bear came unhinged.  Originally I thought maybe the ref called it on the dad as he was certainly out of control.  Guy next to me said his kid was arguing with the ref. They shook hands and the famous grunt/flex occurred directed at his prior year team Burlington (not his opponents team)  My initial thought was WTF,  there is no way the ref is going to let him by with that!   Sure enough  UC.   I didnt even think of the outcome the two UC would have.  Later speaking with friends from all three teams, I learned of the history of the above actors and relationships.  All parents from the teams I spoke with felt really bad that this kid had to suffer this level of consequence  due to egotistic  decisions made by parents.  

As you said there is so much more with the familiarity and history behind this.   This 15 yr old kid was sent not sent out just to win a match, he was sent out to fight for parents egos.   And judging from social media the ego battles of people who were once friends, will continue.

The social warriors have found probably the only sane person involved to blame,  a ref who was merely doing his job the best he could by officiating by the book.

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10 minutes ago, tbert said:

The social warriors have found probably the only sane person involved to blame,  a ref who was merely doing his job the best he could by officiating by the book.

You certainly gave me a lot to think about, and the back story is worth consideration. However, how can you label those who disagree with the ref as social warriors when there is no talk of social issues? I disagree with a judgement call. That is reasonable, and no one is saying you have to agree. Don't go putting a label (of which you obviously dont understand) on everyone who disagrees with you.

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1 hour ago, CoachWrestling said:

You have to be trolling

Not at all.. There are a few people on this thread who are clearly emotional and at no point have I been. I have done nothing but attempt to be completely logical with the information at hand and my experience as a ref. 

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9 hours ago, Perry said:

In my opinion because literally almost every district and state championship in the history of the sport would have been dinged for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Do we really know that no one has ever gotten an unsportsmanlike for flexing?  I’m not sure I buy that argument.

Heck I’ve seen states where after the state finals the ref was forced to walk the winner over to the corner to prevent excessive celebrations.  I think that’s dumb but they were obviously concerned about kids celebrating.

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9 hours ago, Zebra said:

Not at all.. There are a few people on this thread who are clearly emotional and at no point have I been. I have done nothing but attempt to be completely logical with the information at hand and my experience as a ref. 

You clearly have the least objective opinion of anyone in here being a ref yourself. 

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