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WI State Champ out of states for 2 unsportsmanlikes

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I also seem to recall two other post match infractions which were controversial at the time. One in I believe NY where a kid threw his headgear in celebration then lost do to the penalty. And another in PA (state finals I believe) where a kid kept getting penalized and lost in OT on a penalty. He swore at the ref and received a Flagrant Misconduct call and DQd out losing his runner-up position. 

 

These things happen every few years. 

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4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

That ref is a real piece of work.   HS is full of them.

While you may not like the calls what exactly did he do which was outside the rules? 

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Just now, Plasmodium said:

No rule requires that flex to be penalized.  

Taunting is certainly a rules violation. You personally may not believe that was taunting but you are not a zebra. Go get your stripes and tell me again about this you've done it for 15 or so years. Your opinion will most certainly change. 

Again read the article, he was penalized for this exact same thing before. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Taunting is certainly a rules violation. You personally may not believe that was taunting but you are not a zebra. Go get your stripes and tell me again about this you've done it for 15 or so years. Your opinion will most certainly change. 

Again read the article, he was penalized for this exact same thing before. 

 

Absurd!!!   I have seen that same flex countless times and never seen conduct called on it.  So have you and refs with fifty, not 15, years on the mat.

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14 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Absurd!!!   I have seen that same flex countless times and never seen conduct called on it.  So have you and refs with fifty, not 15, years on the mat.

I have and it is situational. Not everything is taunting. In no post did I say "flexing" is a penalty.

You are isolating the items in this video and they are not isolated. You have one angle with limited audio and are making assumptions.

As I said multiple times, read the article, he's been penalized for this before.    

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Tough angle but the escape looked questionable, yet not egregious.   My question is why even complain?  It’s not like he even had a major or a shutout, so what difference does it make?  The match is over.

It also seems the penalty on the flex was not just because he flexed, but more because it was allegedly directed at his former team (who ended up winning the tournament thanks to his lost team points).  And yeah, if he apparently had gotten penalized for flexing before, why do it when you just got penalized for something else? 

The parents probably get the most blame because they are not even acknowledging he did anything wrong so you can see where he gets it from.  And I believe that is the father yelling at the ref before the penalties.

 

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18 minutes ago, Zebra said:

I have and it is situational. Not everything is taunting. In no post did I say "flexing" is a penalty.

You are isolating the items in this video and they are not isolated. You have one angle with limited audio and are making assumptions.

As I said multiple times, read the article, he's been penalized for this before.    

Fact that he's been penalized for this before is irrelevant. There's no exception in the state rule for first-timers.

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My order of outrage: 1. The reversal call - didn't look like a reversal to me, but I'll defer to the official. Dumb for the kid to argue this, given that it had no impact on the match outcome. This is fine.

2. First penalty - we don't know what the kid said to the ref. Again, I'll give the ref. the benefit of the doubt and assume it was inappropriate, so this penalty may be legit. This is also fine.

3. Second penalty - this is a bad call. Kid flexes for less than a sec. in a moment of excitement - the ref. should use his discretion, particularly given that he likely knows the second penalty will eliminate the kids from the post-season. This is a terrible call.

4. State rule requiring he not compete the next weekend if he gets 2 unsportsmanlike calls - terrible rule. You've got to have exceptions for this - e.g. when the post-season is involved. These are 14-18 year old kids who do dumb things all the time; you've got to build in some flexibility to let them learn from mistakes without outsized consequences.

5. Per the article, the state does not allow for any appeals whatsoever. Also a terrible rule and should never be the case. That's how situations like this end up in court, cost everyone more money, and make people start hating the parents and lawyers involved.

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1 hour ago, Zebra said:

The first UC call - That ref didn't even hesitate to make the call so I suspect there is more to it that "What was that?" 

Taunting - If you read the article he's been penalized for this before so he clearly knows the rules. He just did not know the ramifications of another violation. 

As for the escape, speaking as a zebra, wrestlers do not need to be separated for there to be a "loss of control". When a reversal is "in progress" there will be a point where there is a loss of control but we allow the situation to continue so as to not award an escape then TD for 3 points as opposed to the 2 for a reversal. If time runs out, as in this case, and there was a loss of control we are to award the escape. That is what appears to have happened here. Keep in mind we cannot see the other side in this video and the ref is right there so I will give the benefit of the doubt to the ref. 

Is the suspension by the state harsh? Yep, but refs and coaches have to control the mat area and and the wrestlers. I do not know this state's policy on multiple UC penalties in a single event but 1-event suspensions are not unheard of. If the next event is the qualification event for state then it is bad timing for sure but the state cannot ignore the rules if in fact that is the case.   

Sometimes it's hard to understand the 1 pt. after the whistle awarded, hey if loss of control was there after the period why isn't it awarded during the match? No change between match time position and end of period position. I do understand not giving the 1 then 2 td however, no need to bring that up.  

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If the kid retained a lawyer he will be the plaintiff.  It’s likely going to cost a lot of money to defend this case.  If I were the kids parents, I would bring multiple lawsuits and make this a financial nightmare on all defending the cases. 

Edited by tommygun

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9 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Fact that he's been penalized for this before is irrelevant. There's no exception in the state rule for first-timers.

It is relevant in the fact that he knows the rule, nothing more. 

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7 minutes ago, Zebra said:

It is relevant in the fact that he knows the rule, nothing more. 

It makes it sound like you're blaming the kid in order to avoid criticizing the official. The official's behavior has nothing to do with whether the kid is a first-time or second-time offender.

BTW - I appreciate having a ref. commenting in this thread; it's always good to have this perspective. I just think you may be fighting an uphill battle in this case.

Edited by Fletcher

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6 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

My order of outrage: 1. The reversal call - didn't look like a reversal to me, but I'll defer to the official. Dumb for the kid to argue this, given that it had no impact on the match outcome. This is fine.

2. First penalty - we don't know what the kid said to the ref. Again, I'll give the ref. the benefit of the doubt and assume it was inappropriate, so this penalty may be legit. This is also fine.

3. Second penalty - this is a bad call. Kid flexes for less than a sec. in a moment of excitement - the ref. should use his discretion, particularly given that he likely knows the second penalty will eliminate the kids from the post-season. This is a terrible call.

4. State rule requiring he not compete the next weekend if he gets 2 unsportsmanlike calls - terrible rule. You've got to have exceptions for this - e.g. when the post-season is involved. These are 14-18 year old kids who do dumb things all the time; you've got to build in some flexibility to let them learn from mistakes without outsized consequences.

5. Per the article, the state does not allow for any appeals whatsoever. Also a terrible rule and should never be the case. That's how situations like this end up in court, cost everyone more money, and make people start hating the parents and lawyers involved.

1. It was loss of control and 1 point which was awarded when time rain out. This does happen in reversal situations. 

3. Again you have a preconception from a single angle only. Do not assume this is just a simple celebration as you do not have all the facts. I do not either but the ref was right there. 

4. I disagree very strongly with you. There has to be some form of consequence for these types of infractions.  

5. An appeal should be allowed. 

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Kid has a history of these type antics.  He said what the **** to the ref, at the same time his dad yelled at the ref.."what the hell was that" .......then after the ref raised his hand , he let out a roar and flexed to the fans of the school that he was asked to leave from last year.  

The ref was 100% correct by the rules

Parents are the 100% of the issue.

 

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2 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

It makes it sound like you're blaming the kid in order to avoid criticizing the official. The official's behavior has nothing to do with whether the kid is a first-time or second-time offender.

No I am not, I am only pointing out he knows the rules and has been penalized before. 

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Looking forward to seeing two WI lawyers and a judge - whose entire life experiences are limited to cheese, beer and polka - arguing over whether there was an escape. KMF may be called to serve as an expert witness.

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The escape was a legit loss of control and the 1 point was awarded properly. Kid absolutely should have been hit for Unsportsmanlike there. The flexing to the crowd is standard practice in high school athletics these days. Definitely not unsportsmanlike unless you are doing it directly at your opponent. 

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I went on to a Wisconsin forum and while this is all hearsay, the ref and opposing wrestler have indicated the penalized wrestler directed a particular 4-letter word at the ref. It has also been said that the kid was "Flexing" at his dad, but according to some posts his dad can be seen in the video on the other side of the gym. The exact opposite side from which he was facing.  

Someone also posted WI has a rule that two UC penalties in a single even result in an automatic suspension from the next event. 

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