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NW vs Mich - Rivera wrestling Micic

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36 minutes ago, Cradle1969 said:

Was it smart for Rivera to bump up? What did it accomplish? Yes, he showed he's not afraid to lose, yes he showed he's up for a challenge. But at what expense. Did Micic expose some weaknesses that Lee and Brands can now attack? I believe the # 1 goal of an NCAA wrestler is to win the NCAA Championship. Whatever strategy, tactics, approach that gets THAT job done is what should be done. If I were a NCAA coach - that is what I would be concerned with. I wouldn't worry about what the fans want to see or what some people think is best for the sport. 

 

It got him a challenging match.  He hasn't really had one of those since he beat Lee.

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Spencer Lee ducking Sebastian Rivera was just amped up by 125 lb. Rivera STEPPING UP to wrestle the likely 2019 133 lb. NCAA champ Micic. Kudos to Rivera for having the guts to take it up a notch. I truly do not see Spencer beating Rivera, or even Bresser and now Vito who just destroyed Glory.

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1 hour ago, Perry said:

Spencer lee wont show up for a rematch while Rivera is bumping to take on the number 1bup a weight. One of these men/programs has earned respect regardless of the outcome in March. Brands could learn a real lesson from this courage

My point exactly, Brands Duckmeister coach, along with his Duckmeister brother Ryan.

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Why isn't it the (first and primary) goal to win a dual or tournament for the TEAM before it is the priority for individuals on the team to win? 

My coach used to bump me and occasionally other guys up to wrestle better wrestlers with the goal of winning the dual.   This used to happen in college more often. 

Did it improve  NW's chances of winning the dual or was it just to provide a challenge for Rivera and increase fan interest?  Either approach could be worth defending, but to lay the sole emphasis on particular individuals winning championships is not always compatible with team goals.  Obviously, that is why coaches adjust their lineups in terms of who goes at what weight.

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1 hour ago, Cradle1969 said:

Was it smart for Rivera to bump up? What did it accomplish? Yes, he showed he's not afraid to lose, yes he showed he's up for a challenge. But at what expense. Did Micic expose some weaknesses that Lee and Brands can now attack? I believe the # 1 goal of an NCAA wrestler is to win the NCAA Championship. Whatever strategy, tactics, approach that gets THAT job done is what should be done. If I were a NCAA coach - that is what I would be concerned with. I wouldn't worry about what the fans want to see or what some people think is best for the sport. 

9 out of the top 20 125lbers are from the Big10...I am going to go out on a limb and say that Iowa has discovered video, they have watched a lot of it featuring Rivera against the Big10 and they will see it again in a couple weeks. I doubt that bumping up a weight to wrestle Micic has ruined his chances at an NCAA title. 

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But nobody has successfully attacked Rivera like Micic did. Micic made him look very vulnerable. I'f Im an opposing coach, i would break down the tape and see what worked against him. If anything else, it showed he is VERY beatable. Its the same thing that happens in football at all levels. Once a teams weakness is exposed, everyone tries to attack that weakness. 

I respect Rivera for what he did. I'm just not sure what he actually got out of it. 

And please don't tell me it was for the team. Northwestern wasn't going to beat Michigan. 

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I think on balance Rivera gains a lot more than he loses wrestling Micic. Whatever hypothetical weaknesses Lee of others spot is worth it compared with his learning about his own weaknesses before he faces Lee again. He got taken down three times in essentially three different ways. That’s a lot of learning. More than he’d get from any match at 125 between now and Big Tens. 

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8 minutes ago, Cradle1969 said:

But nobody has successfully attacked Rivera like Micic did. Micic made him look very vulnerable. I'f Im an opposing coach, i would break down the tape and see what worked against him. If anything else, it showed he is VERY beatable. Its the same thing that happens in football at all levels. Once a teams weakness is exposed, everyone tries to attack that weakness. 

I respect Rivera for what he did. I'm just not sure what he actually got out of it. 

And please don't tell me it was for the team. Northwestern wasn't going to beat Michigan. 

Eh, I don't think we'll see coaches try to replicate this match to beat him. Micic has a very unique style that is tailored for his body. Nobody else really wrestles anything like him. I don't think any of the top 125s watch that match and think Rivera is anymore vulnerable than he was before. Micic was way bigger and his length gave Rivera all sorts of problems on re-attacks and drags. Now, if MIcic was a more conventional wrestler and was hitting things that are easily repeatable I would maybe agree, but I don't think that's the case.

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The goal of a high school wrestler is to win state. The goal of a college wrestler is to win NCAA's. The goal of post grads is to win Worlds/Olympics. I agree - challenging oneself to be the best is important and part of the "code", but should not interfere or get in the way of winning these championships. These athletes/coaches have to do what is best for themselves and their programs and not worry about who wins fans respect. 
I disagree

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3 hours ago, Cradle1969 said:

Was it smart for Rivera to bump up? What did it accomplish? Yes, he showed he's not afraid to lose, yes he showed he's up for a challenge. But at what expense. Did Micic expose some weaknesses that Lee and Brands can now attack? I believe the # 1 goal of an NCAA wrestler is to win the NCAA Championship. Whatever strategy, tactics, approach that gets THAT job done is what should be done. If I were a NCAA coach - that is what I would be concerned with. I wouldn't worry about what the fans want to see or what some people think is best for the sport. 

Welcome to the boards Coach Morningstar!

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3 hours ago, Cradle1969 said:

The goal of a high school wrestler is to win state. The goal of a college wrestler is to win NCAA's. The goal of post grads is to win Worlds/Olympics. I agree - challenging oneself to be the best is important and part of the "code", but should not interfere or get in the way of winning these championships. These athletes/coaches have to do what is best for themselves and their programs and not worry about who wins fans respect. 

The best way to address your perception of the world is that you believe that what matters most is the destination, not the journey. I would disagree. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but rather, your focus is someplace else. IMO, there is more to be gleaned from the journey than the final destination and I applaud young men who are willing to "reach out" and challenge themselves at every opportunity.

Edited by npope

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2 hours ago, Cradle1969 said:

But nobody has successfully attacked Rivera like Micic did. Micic made him look very vulnerable. I'f Im an opposing coach, i would break down the tape and see what worked against him. If anything else, it showed he is VERY beatable. Its the same thing that happens in football at all levels. Once a teams weakness is exposed, everyone tries to attack that weakness. 

I respect Rivera for what he did. I'm just not sure what he actually got out of it. 

And please don't tell me it was for the team. Northwestern wasn't going to beat Michigan. 

20/20 is hindsight - Rivera could get beat at the B10s and the same concept could be used - video of what worked to be used against him. He didn't go into the match thinking that by bumping up he would be vulnerable to defeat and give teams something to use against him. Bresser scored on him and had him on ropes to only lose in OT - I am sure they are looking at that tape to. In the end SR is watching tape to - studying - and not to counter everything but to wrestle his match. 

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1 hour ago, npope said:

The best way to address your perception of the world is that you believe that what matters most is the destination, not the journey. I would disagree. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but rather, your focus is someplace else. IMO, there is more to be gleaned from the journey than the final destination and I applaud young men who are willing to "reach out" and challenge themselves at every opportunity.

Something make me want to light a lighter and wave it in the darkness...

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5 hours ago, Cradle1969 said:

Was it smart for Rivera to bump up? What did it accomplish? Yes, he showed he's not afraid to lose, yes he showed he's up for a challenge. But at what expense. Did Micic expose some weaknesses that Lee and Brands can now attack? I believe the # 1 goal of an NCAA wrestler is to win the NCAA Championship. Whatever strategy, tactics, approach that gets THAT job done is what should be done. If I were a NCAA coach - that is what I would be concerned with. I wouldn't worry about what the fans want to see or what some people think is best for the sport. 

Maybe Rivera wanted to learn about his own weaknesses and address them before the NCAA tourney. Hard to do it with every good 125 sitting out against him.

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The logic of everyone saying he shouldn’t have done it because now there’s a “blueprint” on how to beat him...Wow! Just wow, how dumb that is. By this logic no one should wrestle any matches throughout the year till NCAA for fear of showing someone how you wrestle or what you do. It’s amazing people are finding a way to look at seeking out the best competition as a negative thing.


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I’m sure every 25er watched that match and know all they really have to do to drop Rivera is grow a few inches in height and length everywhere and put on an additional 15lbs... 

seems easy enough...

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20 minutes ago, LJB said:

I’m sure every 25er watched that match and know all they really have to do to drop Rivera is grow a few inches in height and length everywhere and put on an additional 15lbs... 

seems easy enough...

Micic did look considerably bigger than Rivera.  Crazy to think he wrestles 57kg in freestyle

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I get why people were pumped to see Rivera bump up but it was a zero risk move. If he wins he's king of the world. If he loses he still gets applauded. Plus he avoided a potential bad loss v Mattin.

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4 hours ago, dmm53 said:

Why isn't it the (first and primary) goal to win a dual or tournament for the TEAM before it is the priority for individuals on the team to win? 

My coach used to bump me and occasionally other guys up to wrestle better wrestlers with the goal of winning the dual.   This used to happen in college more often. 

Did it improve  NW's chances of winning the dual or was it just to provide a challenge for Rivera and increase fan interest?  Either approach could be worth defending, but to lay the sole emphasis on particular individuals winning championships is not always compatible with team goals.  Obviously, that is why coaches adjust their lineups in terms of who goes at what weight.

If Rivera stays at 125 and gets a pin (unlikely) and the NU 133 lber keeps it to a decision against Micic (also unlikely), NU still loses the dual.

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59 minutes ago, LJB said:

I’m sure every 25er watched that match and know all they really have to do to drop Rivera is grow a few inches in height and length everywhere and put on an additional 15lbs... 

seems easy enough...

Dont forget that they also saw they just need to get better. Improve offensively, and grow a bunch and you can give him fits.

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