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russelscout

Common Sense in Big 10 scheduling

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I fully realize that there is a system in place to set up the season schedules. However, can we please get some common sense applied to that system? It is absolutely ludicrous that Iowa is not wresting PSU this year, but its even worse that they don't meet Michigan and Ohio St. either. In the grand scheme of things does it matter? Absolutely not, but to build interest we need to have these big matches. Ok, I will step down from my soap box now.

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

In the grand scheme of things does it matter? Absolutely not

The duals are simply a sample of individual matches to get individual matchups within the conference for seeding in the individual tournament the conference holds.

The conference results in the team score doesn't mean anything (though fans and coaches like the bragging rights).  The Big Ten is fine with multiple teams finishing the conference schedule undefeated.  

 

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11 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I fully realize that there is a system in place to set up the season schedules. However, can we please get some common sense applied to that system? It is absolutely ludicrous that Iowa is not wresting PSU this year, but its even worse that they don't meet Michigan and Ohio St. either. In the grand scheme of things does it matter? Absolutely not, but to build interest we need to have these big matches. Ok, I will step down from my soap box now.

Iowa could have wrestled at Penn State this year if they wanted to. PSU travelled to Iowa several years ago to wrestle OOC and Brands stated he'd return that favor in a future year. Cael Sanderson even spoke about it at one point, but it once more failed to materialize. What the heck is he waiting for? 

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5 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Didn't PSU travel to Iowa a few years back even though it wasn't on the schedule?

 

Did Iowa return the favor yet?

This has been discussed and argued about plenty.  No, Iowa has not returned the favor but has Iowa had the chance to return the favor?  I know they have been asked but that doesn't mean it has worked for their schedule to travel to PSU.

I also hate the fact that Iowa doesn't wrestle any of those schools this year.  I wish they would wrestle them all every year and it should be written into the big ten contract that the top schools should wrestle each other every year but that isn't going to happen.  It certainly doesn't help the sport when the top schools don't wrestle each other.

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7 minutes ago, AlexSteenTOM said:

Yes

Kind of...  But not really.

They do now present an award for the best record in the conference dual schedule.  However, a few years ago, I contacted the Big Ten office and asked for information on the history of the Conference Team championships.  They provided me with the tournament results.  I asked for the dual championship history and they replied that they do not track that data in the conference records.  They said that the Big Ten champion team was only determined by duals between 1922-1925.

Here is the Big Ten historical data on their website which seems in line with what I was told:  https://s3.amazonaws.com/bigten.org/documents/2018/9/10/Wrestling.pdf

Edited by Pinnum

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1 minute ago, Pinnum said:

Kind of...  But not really.

They do now present an award for the best record in the conference dual schedule.  However, a few years ago, I contacted the Big Ten office and asked for information on the history of the Conference Team championships.  They provided me with the tournament results.  I asked for the dual championship history and they replied that they do not track that data in the conference records.  They said that the Big Ten champion team was only determined by duals between 1922-1925.

Here is the Big Ten historical data on their website which seems in line with what I was told:  https://s3.amazonaws.com/bigten.org/documents/2018/9/10/Wrestling.pdf

No one is arguing it is significant, but it does exist.

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12 minutes ago, BHawk91 said:

This has been discussed and argued about plenty.  No, Iowa has not returned the favor but has Iowa had the chance to return the favor?  I know they have been asked but that doesn't mean it has worked for their schedule to travel to PSU.

I also hate the fact that Iowa doesn't wrestle any of those schools this year.  I wish they would wrestle them all every year and it should be written into the big ten contract that the top schools should wrestle each other every year but that isn't going to happen.  It certainly doesn't help the sport when the top schools don't wrestle each other.

Tom asked Cael to do it and Cael made it happen that same year. Iowa has now had multiple opportunities to repay the favor and Brands has not reciprocated. At some point this is on him. 

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May I offer a suggestion? It is similar to the very common (at least in Penna) in HS 8 team 2 pool tournament with a double crossover. If you are not familiar, 2 pools of 4, using 4 mats. After the first 3 rounds, the 1sts wrestle the 2nds from the other pool, and the 3rds wrestle the 4ths. then the two 1sts, 2nds, 3rds, 4ths each wrestle. If the pools were reasonable the 4 strong teams wrestle each of the 3 other strong teams. and true 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 is established.

Big 10  could do the same, sort of. Divide into east-west like football. each division wrestle round robin over 4-5 weeks. leave a weekend (or two) open. On the first day, (Friday if one weekend) all the Easts host: 1E hosts 2W; 2E hosts 1W; 3E; hosts 4W...... 6E hosts 5W.  Then, Sunday, 1W hosts 1E,; 2W hosts 2E..... 6w hosts 6E,; 7W hosts 7E. Obviously the next season West hosts Friday and East Sunday.

Obvious problem the 7s have an open date. this would not be a problem, if done for the EIWA (16 teams) or the Big 12(12 teams)

So this year Penn st would host (who is 2nd in the West, Minn?)  and Mich hosts Iowa, on Friday.    Then on Sunday (or the next weekend) Iowa hosts PSU   amd Minn would host Mich.       

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4 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Tom asked Cael to do it and Cael made it happen that same year. Iowa has now had multiple opportunities to repay the favor and Brands has not reciprocated. At some point this is on him. 

And I am sure he will reciprocate. It needs to work for both of their schedules.

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Didn't PSU travel to Iowa a few years back even though it wasn't on the schedule?

 

Did Iowa return the favor yet?

No, but that wouldn't have to happen if it was scheduled ahead of time. Do you understand how that works?

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Iowa could have wrestled at Penn State this year if they wanted to. PSU travelled to Iowa several years ago to wrestle OOC and Brands stated he'd return that favor in a future year. Cael Sanderson even spoke about it at one point, but it once more failed to materialize. What the heck is he waiting for? 

I get that this is a great opportunity to jump on Brands about something, but if it was already on the schedule this problem would be solved. Get it?

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Serious question: Do Iowa and/or Penn State make more money when they wrestle each other or when they don't wrestle each other?

I ask because this is the problem that football and basketball has.

It can be more profitable for a school to compete against a team in a mismatch and sell a lot of tickets than to compete against a peer in a home/home series and give up one home date completely.

In football and basketball there are two incentives that really aren't at play in wrestling that help to incentivize these games to happen on occasion.  (1) teams will agree to them when they get National TV and (2) they will agree to a limited number as they are necessary to help their qualification to the national tournament or bowl games.

Iowa averages 9k fans.  CHA capacity is 15.5k.  So if they use an OOC home slot to go on the road they give up roughly 9k in attendance (and whatever their revenue metric is for that attendance).  Now, the benefit people will cite is getting to attract 15.5k in an alternate year, but that only averages to about 8k a year.  It means that Iowa is able to fill a non-conference dual slot at home every year, rather than going on the road, they are better off financially.

The same is true of Penn State, despite being limited to the capacity of Rec Hall.

National TV hasn't really been any benefit, especially with more people likely having access to the duals through Flo than BTN.

And there is no dual component to any season accomplishment.  Even if this dual wrestled against two Big Ten teams, it wouldn't determine any Big Ten standings or Championship.  It would simply be an OOC dual which means nothing other than bragging rights.

So what is the price you put on bragging rights?

 

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26 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I get that this is a great opportunity to jump on Brands about something, but if it was already on the schedule this problem would be solved. Get it?

The Big10 is not going to change the way they schedule their sports, and wrestling is no different than any of the sports. What do you think you are going to accomplish with this line of questioning? Some big movement to get the Big10 to do things differently? That isn't going to happen, so this is an exercise in futility. 

I took the tact that I did because it is more likely Brands can be cajoled into eventually doing the right thing than it is to get the Big10 to adopt new scheduling methods. Get it?

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, BHawk91 said:

And I am sure he will reciprocate. It needs to work for both of their schedules.

If it was a priority he would make it work. Since its not a priority he is able to passively avoid it.

 

31 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I get that this is a great opportunity to jump on Brands about something, but if it was already on the schedule this problem would be solved. Get it?

It cant "already" be on the schedule until someone puts it on the schedule.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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4 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

The Big10 is not going to change the way they schedule their sports, and wrestling is no different than any of the sports. What do you think you are going to accomplish with this line of questioning? Some big movement to get the Big10 to do things differently? That isn't going to happen, so this is an exersize in futility. 

You're wrong. Wrestling is scheduled different. Check out the Big Ten football schedules - I'm surprised you missed that. 

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6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

The Big10 is not going to change the way they schedule their sports, and wrestling is no different than any of the sports. What do you think you are going to accomplish with this line of questioning? Some big movement to get the Big10 to do things differently? That isn't going to happen, so this is an exersize in futility. 

Well in a way there is precedent. In football the Ohio St. vs Michigan game was played every year, along with other rivalry games at a time before there was an east and west division. They made exceptions in football because of the popularity of the match-ups. I realize that is football and this is wrestling, but is it that outlandish to think they would make a change because of demand and to bring more attention to the conference? 

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Also, are the future rotations and matchups known?  Like does Penn State and Iowa know that in 2025 they will not wrestle a conference dual?  Or do they find out when the conference puts together the schedule in the summer?  How much notice do they have?  I was under the impression the last time they wrestled non-conference that it was fairly short notice they found out they wouldn't be wrestling. 

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